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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - After seeing Bayonetta 2 and 'X' in action today...

 

The PS4's power seems...

Better, but not THAT much better anymore... 241 15.42%
 
Are you crazy?! The PS4 is GOD! 349 22.33%
 
The Wii U is clearly unde... 741 47.41%
 
The PS4 is selling better... 36 2.30%
 
I think I'll be buying a... 191 12.22%
 
Total:1,558
T.Rexington on 25 February 2014
bigtakilla said:
T.Rexington said:
I think the Wii U is underrated for sure. Bayonetta 2 and X are proof of the visuals that the console is capable of. That said, the gap is still there and it'll get more noticeable as time goes on. I just think about all the zombies in Dead Rising 3 that not only appear in the hundreds, but simultaneously die in the hundreds as well with a huge explosion on top of it.


That's all nice but it's still 720p with a stuttering 30fps. I know later it got patched so it might perform better, just something to think about. 

I also think there should be way more to nexgen games than frame rate and resolution. Stuff like that really doesn't bother me.



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starworld on 25 February 2014
T.Rexington said:
bigtakilla said:
T.Rexington said:
I think the Wii U is underrated for sure. Bayonetta 2 and X are proof of the visuals that the console is capable of. That said, the gap is still there and it'll get more noticeable as time goes on. I just think about all the zombies in Dead Rising 3 that not only appear in the hundreds, but simultaneously die in the hundreds as well with a huge explosion on top of it.


That's all nice but it's still 720p with a stuttering 30fps. I know later it got patched so it might perform better, just something to think about. 

I also think there should be way more to nexgen games than frame rate and resolution. Stuff like that really doesn't bother me.

bf4 is probably the most nextgen game out its makes the curren gen  play and look like crap in comparison



T.Rexington on 25 February 2014
starworld said:
T.Rexington said:
bigtakilla said:
T.Rexington said:
I think the Wii U is underrated for sure. Bayonetta 2 and X are proof of the visuals that the console is capable of. That said, the gap is still there and it'll get more noticeable as time goes on. I just think about all the zombies in Dead Rising 3 that not only appear in the hundreds, but simultaneously die in the hundreds as well with a huge explosion on top of it.


That's all nice but it's still 720p with a stuttering 30fps. I know later it got patched so it might perform better, just something to think about. 

I also think there should be way more to nexgen games than frame rate and resolution. Stuff like that really doesn't bother me.

bf4 is probably the most nextgen game out its makes the curren gen  play and look like crap in comparison

There's definitely been a boost in characters on screen and players in the same game. 



fatslob-:O on 25 February 2014
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

Even if the IBM espresso had high clocks it's still a very offensive single threaded performer due to the fact that it has such as low IPC. Caching is AUTOMATED NO MATTER WHAT and is not handled by the programmer and the cores aren't ASSYMETRICAL AT ALL. If you want assymetrical go and take a look at the cell processor LOL. 

Espresso's IPC is higher than Cell or Xenon, the guy who hacked it confirmed as much.

Cache handling is not automated cos Shin'en pointed out: "the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code."

And they ARE assymetrical; one core has 2MB of cache,the other two have 512kb each.

Actually it's lower because it has very weak SIMD engine and the SIMD instructions also don't extend to integers either which makes it a total clusterfuck in integer performance. Hector Martin also made the note of this but while he did express concerns of weak SIMD engines I don't think he emphasized it enough seeing as how he probably didn't forsee that engines became more and more focused on the thought of vectorization. It would have won in alot of cases but that's probably because it's more suited to actual CPU tasks that involves lots of branching but in HPC it would have lost because it doesn't have the raw performance that the CPUs in the PS360 offer.

Yes IT IS! Caching is not handled by the programmer AT ALL. Caching works on the premise of PREFETCHING and programmers don't know which way the code will branch so it is not up to the programmer to handle the cache. The best thing you can do to help out the cache is that you don't litter the shit out of your code with conditionals and branches otherwise that will increase cache usage which means more possibilites for stalls in the pipelines and such. 

Oh wow, one core has more cache than the other ... Like it makes huge difference. 

-Marcan clearly noted Espresso should "win big on IPC on most code."

-So in other words, you code in a way that benefits cache function, so in effect you are managing cache indirectly.

-You were still wrong about it being symmetrical.

Yes but he also expressed concerns about the ibm espresso's SIMD engine. Just because it can win in most codes doesn't mean that it will have more potential considering that it's capped at 15 Gflops. Where it won't win is in hpc performance which is also a somewhat relevant metric too considering the fact that games are performance critical.

 

It's true that you can fix your code to suit smaller caches and such but never does the programmer handle the cache.

 

Big woop ... Like that'll make a huge difference considering all of it's other weaknesses.



fatslob-:O on 25 February 2014
JoeTheBro said:
fatslob-:O said:

The one who called BS was you and you simply in the end didn't debunk anything at the end of all this ... Why don't you go listen to JoeTheBro instead to give you an explanation.

Oh I'll still talk with ZyroXZ2, but I'm done with this discussion with him. I like debating these things, not arguing them. With lines like "I said I'd stop, and yet here I am kicking you while you're down.  I will stop from this point forward, regardless of your response, for your sake"he shows he's not expressing his points, but rather is making it a personal battle lacking any commitment to the truth. You're far from innocent yourself, but at least I haven't noticed any childish remarks like this in your comments.

It may be true that I gave him a terrible attitude while being reluctant to explain anything but it's probably for the better since he's far from capable of interpreting the mechanics of performance. Well atleast I don't go around making conspiracy theory claims.



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curl-6 on 25 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:

Yes but he also expressed concerns about the ibm espresso's SIMD engine. Just because it can win in most codes doesn't mean that it will have more potential considering that it's capped at 15 Gflops. Where it won't win is in hpc performance which is also a somewhat relevant metric too considering the fact that games are performance critical.

It's true that you can fix your code to suit smaller caches and such but never does the programmer handle the cache.

Big woop ... Like that'll make a huge difference considering all of it's other weaknesses.

-Did Marcan ever confirm 15 Gflops? And besides, that's why it has a GPGPU.

-That's my point, the way you program still effects how well the caches function. To get good performance out of Espresso you'll need to code for its larger cache

-But it does make it different to working with Gekko or Broadway, not to mention Cell and Xenon, which the multiplatform engines are based on.



fatslob-:O on 25 February 2014
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

Yes but he also expressed concerns about the ibm espresso's SIMD engine. Just because it can win in most codes doesn't mean that it will have more potential considering that it's capped at 15 Gflops. Where it won't win is in hpc performance which is also a somewhat relevant metric too considering the fact that games are performance critical.

It's true that you can fix your code to suit smaller caches and such but never does the programmer handle the cache.

Big woop ... Like that'll make a huge difference considering all of it's other weaknesses.

-Did Marcan ever confirm 15 Gflops? And besides, that's why it has a GPGPU.

Do I have to when marcan himself just said that it was just three overclocked ibm broadways ? If we scale the numbers up from broadway we get 15 Gflops for espresso.

-That's my point, the way you program still effects how well the caches function. To get good performance out of Espresso you'll need to code for its larger cache

However, you DON'T program or manage the cache itself. ALL OF IT IS DONE BY THE CPU ITSELF. The point of cache is to get SUSTAINED performance. It is not some magical part that can increase theorectical performance.

-But it does make it different to working with Gekko or Broadway, not to mention Cell and Xenon, which the multiplatform engines are based on.

Your grasping at straws here ... Just because one core has 1.5mb more L2 cache than the other cores doesn't mean that it will largely affect the functionality of the other cores. One core having less cache misses just means that it will stall less than the other cores. Once again the programmer doesn't ever touch the cache, all of it is done in the background of the application so little can be done about it. 


curl-6 on 25 February 2014
starworld said:
curl-6 said:
Hynad said:

Cu l, you're really not doing much to provere your point here.

But it's all good. You've said it yourself that the Wii U is just moderately stronger than therre PS3 and 360. Making it a system that is in the same ballpark as those two. The same as the original XBox being in the same ballpark as the Gamecube and PS2, despite being the system with the most horsepower... ^_-

PS2 to original Xbox sounds about right to me; like Wii U, it had twice as much RAM as its Sony rival and a GPU several generations ahead.


not even close xbox and ps2 are so diffrernt interms of hardware they make the wiiu and 360 seem like twins, yet it could run almost all ports for ps2 ports better with very little effort by using brute force, not to mention the xbox gpu can do shaders while ps2 cant

Wii U has GPGPU compute shaders and DX10/11 equivalent features which PS3/360 don't have. 

Also, Xbox didn't arrive 6 years into PS2's lifespan after all engines were tailored intimately to PS2.



curl-6 on 25 February 2014
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

Yes but he also expressed concerns about the ibm espresso's SIMD engine. Just because it can win in most codes doesn't mean that it will have more potential considering that it's capped at 15 Gflops. Where it won't win is in hpc performance which is also a somewhat relevant metric too considering the fact that games are performance critical.

It's true that you can fix your code to suit smaller caches and such but never does the programmer handle the cache.

Big woop ... Like that'll make a huge difference considering all of it's other weaknesses.

-Did Marcan ever confirm 15 Gflops? And besides, that's why it has a GPGPU.

Do I have to when marcan himself just said that it was just three overclocked ibm broadways ? If we scale the numbers up from broadway we get 15 Gflops for espresso.

-That's my point, the way you program still effects how well the caches function. To get good performance out of Espresso you'll need to code for its larger cache

However, you DON'T program or manage the cache itself. ALL OF IT IS DONE BY THE CPU ITSELF. The point of cache is to get SUSTAINED performance. It is not some magical part that can increase theorectical performance.

-But it does make it different to working with Gekko or Broadway, not to mention Cell and Xenon, which the multiplatform engines are based on.

Your grasping at straws here ... Just because one core has 1.5mb more L2 cache than the other cores doesn't mean that it will largely affect the functionality of the other cores. One core having less cache misses just means that it will stall less than the other cores. Once again the programmer doesn't ever touch the cache, all of it is done in the background of the application so little can be done about it. 

- That's only accounting for core count and clock speed, not the 12-fold cache increase which will boost performance.

- But you have to manage your code so that the cache can work well with it.

- Assymetrical cache amounts means the "main" core has to be prioritised, as Shin'en did with Nano Assault Neo, running essentially the whole game on that one core.



Scoobes on 25 February 2014

How the hell does this thread manage to keep going based on a couple of vids of two unreleased games?!




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