By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - After seeing Bayonetta 2 and 'X' in action today...

 

The PS4's power seems...

Better, but not THAT much better anymore... 241 15.42%
 
Are you crazy?! The PS4 is GOD! 349 22.33%
 
The Wii U is clearly unde... 741 47.41%
 
The PS4 is selling better... 36 2.30%
 
I think I'll be buying a... 191 12.22%
 
Total:1,558
Hynad said:

You state all this as if it were facts. You should really prepare yourself for disappointment if you believe the Wii U is an entire league more powerful than the HD twins.

Devs don't have much experience on PS4, yet they ported the PC assets and improved many aspects of Tomb Raider... The scenario you're making up would make sense only if the Wii U didn't have much more horsepower than the HD twins. But the way you present all this indicates that you believe it's actually in an other league... Which so far has been proven to be false, even when you consider the exclusives.

None of the exclusives so far have been designed to be graphically ambitious. No Wii U game so far is really a good measuring stick of its power cos they  are all either ports or technically modest.

Obviously I don't believe Wii U is as powerful as the PS4, but it can go noticeably beyond PS3/360.



Around the Network
Hynad said:
curl-6 said:
Hynad said:
curl-6 said:

Seems like a safe bet looking at their past ports. I don't expect them to change their habits now.


Wait... So Ubisoft is making one version to be the main one to be ported to the other platforms, right? They port it, say from the 360 to the PS3, and all is fine and dandy... But when they do the same move to the Wii U, a console you believe to be more powerful than the HD twins, the porting process doesn't work as well? 

By your logic, if the PS3, which has a very different CPU and GPU compared to the 360, can handle such lazy porting process of assets, the Wii U should have no problem whatsoever since it's supposedly more powerful than the PS3. 


PS3 had the same problems back in its early years actually.

It's not a problem any more because after 7 years of practice, porting between PS3/360 has been refined to a science.

But the Wii U porting doesn't have 7 years of dev experience and investment on its side.

You state all this as if it were facts. You should really prepare yourself for disappointment if you believe the Wii U is an entire league more powerful than the HD twins.

Devs don't have much experience on PS4, yet they ported the PC assets and improved many aspects of Tomb Raider... The scenario you're making up would make sense only if the Wii U didn't have much more horsepower than the HD twins. But the way you present all this indicates that you believe it's actually in an other league... Which so far has been proven to be false, even when you consider the exclusives.

Tomb raider was especially improved on the PS4 since it featured some nice effects such as subsurface scattering not found on the PC. 



fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

PS3 had the same problems back in its early years actually.

It's not a problem any more because after 7 years of practice, porting between PS3/360 has been refined to a science.

But the Wii U porting doesn't have 7 years of dev experience and investment on its side.

Does it really need 7 years of experience when almost everyone in the industry already knows what it's hardware is and/or already has the tools ? 

Think about, curl ... The IBM espresso is just an overclocked gamecube processor with two more cores. The GPU is just from some evergreen family with no architectural modifications to boot. How hard can it be to program on it ? If it has better support for GPGPU like you mentioned then shouldn't it be much easier to program on it seeing as how you can easily use a middleware to expose the underlying functionalities of it on a high level abstraction layer ? 

Afterall one of the goals of GPGPU is to make concurrent programming models simpler. 

We can't say they know its GPU cos we don't know what the GPU is.

Broadway/Gekko didn't have assymetrical cores or such a heavy focus on cache like Espresso. But the main issue is that code built from PS3/360's high clock, low cache, long pipeline CPUs are being shoved onto Wii U's low cock, high cache, short pipeline CPU. It's a square peg into a round hole.



curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:

PS3 had the same problems back in its early years actually.

It's not a problem any more because after 7 years of practice, porting between PS3/360 has been refined to a science.

But the Wii U porting doesn't have 7 years of dev experience and investment on its side.

Does it really need 7 years of experience when almost everyone in the industry already knows what it's hardware is and/or already has the tools ? 

Think about, curl ... The IBM espresso is just an overclocked gamecube processor with two more cores. The GPU is just from some evergreen family with no architectural modifications to boot. How hard can it be to program on it ? If it has better support for GPGPU like you mentioned then shouldn't it be much easier to program on it seeing as how you can easily use a middleware to expose the underlying functionalities of it on a high level abstraction layer ? 

Afterall one of the goals of GPGPU is to make concurrent programming models simpler. 

We can't say they know its GPU cos we don't know what the GPU is.

Broadway/Gekko didn't have assymetrical cores or such a heavy focus on cache like Espresso. But the main issue is that code built from PS3/360's high clock, low cache, long pipeline CPUs are being shoved onto Wii U's low cock, high cache, short pipeline CPU. It's a square peg into a round hole.

NO, we may not know it's exact specs but it definitely fits the descrption of a cut down HD 5550 very nicely if we take a look at the clocks power figures and everything ... Plus it's still on the same tried and true VLIW5. 

Even if the IBM espresso had high clocks it's still a very offensive single threaded performer due to the fact that it has such as low IPC. Caching is AUTOMATED NO MATTER WHAT and is not handled by the programmer and the cores aren't ASSYMETRICAL AT ALL. If you want assymetrical go and take a look at the cell processor LOL. 



fatslob-:O said:

Even if the IBM espresso had high clocks it's still a very offensive single threaded performer due to the fact that it has such as low IPC. Caching is AUTOMATED NO MATTER WHAT and is not handled by the programmer and the cores aren't ASSYMETRICAL AT ALL. If you want assymetrical go and take a look at the cell processor LOL. 

Espresso's IPC is higher than Cell or Xenon, the guy who hacked it confirmed as much.

Cache handling is not automated cos Shin'en pointed out: "the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code."

And they ARE assymetrical; one core has 2MB of cache,the other two have 512kb each.



Around the Network
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

Even if the IBM espresso had high clocks it's still a very offensive single threaded performer due to the fact that it has such as low IPC. Caching is AUTOMATED NO MATTER WHAT and is not handled by the programmer and the cores aren't ASSYMETRICAL AT ALL. If you want assymetrical go and take a look at the cell processor LOL. 

Espresso's IPC is higher than Cell or Xenon, the guy who hacked it confirmed as much.

Cache handling is not automated cos Shin'en pointed out: "the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code."

And they ARE assymetrical; one core has 2MB of cache,the other two have 512kb each.

Actually it's lower because it has very weak SIMD engine and the SIMD instructions also don't extend to integers either which makes it a total clusterfuck in integer performance. Hector Martin also made the note of this but while he did express concerns of weak SIMD engines I don't think he emphasized it enough seeing as how he probably didn't forsee that engines became more and more focused on the thought of vectorization. It would have won in alot of cases but that's probably because it's more suited to actual CPU tasks that involves lots of branching but in HPC it would have lost because it doesn't have the raw performance that the CPUs in the PS360 offer.

Yes IT IS! Caching is not handled by the programmer AT ALL. Caching works on the premise of PREFETCHING and programmers don't know which way the code will branch so it is not up to the programmer to handle the cache. The best thing you can do to help out the cache is that you don't litter the shit out of your code with conditionals and branches otherwise that will increase cache usage which means more possibilites for stalls in the pipelines and such. 

Oh wow, one core has more cache than the other ... Like it makes huge difference. 



fatslob-:O said:
curl-6 said:
fatslob-:O said:

Even if the IBM espresso had high clocks it's still a very offensive single threaded performer due to the fact that it has such as low IPC. Caching is AUTOMATED NO MATTER WHAT and is not handled by the programmer and the cores aren't ASSYMETRICAL AT ALL. If you want assymetrical go and take a look at the cell processor LOL. 

Espresso's IPC is higher than Cell or Xenon, the guy who hacked it confirmed as much.

Cache handling is not automated cos Shin'en pointed out: "the workings of the CPU caches are very important to master. Otherwise you can lose a magnitude of power for cache relevant parts of your code."

And they ARE assymetrical; one core has 2MB of cache,the other two have 512kb each.

Actually it's lower because it has very weak SIMD engine and the SIMD instructions also don't extend to integers either which makes it a total clusterfuck in integer performance. Hector Martin also made the note of this but while he did express concerns of weak SIMD engines I don't think he emphasized it enough seeing as how he probably didn't forsee that engines became more and more focused on the thought of vectorization. It would have won in alot of cases but that's probably because it's more suited to actual CPU tasks that involves lots of branching but in HPC it would have lost because it doesn't have the raw performance that the CPUs in the PS360 offer.

Yes IT IS! Caching is not handled by the programmer AT ALL. Caching works on the premise of PREFETCHING and programmers don't know which way the code will branch so it is not up to the programmer to handle the cache. The best thing you can do to help out the cache is that you don't litter the shit out of your code with conditionals and branches otherwise that will increase cache usage which means more possibilites for stalls in the pipelines and such. 

Oh wow, one core has more cache than the other ... Like it makes huge difference. 

-Marcan clearly noted Espresso should "win big on IPC on most code."

-So in other words, you code in a way that benefits cache function, so in effect you are managing cache indirectly.

-You were still wrong about it being symmetrical.



Curl, you're really not doing much to prove your point here.

But it's all good. You've said it yourself that the Wii U is just moderately stronger than the PS3 and 360. Making it a system that is in the same ballpark as those two. The same as the original XBox being in the same ballpark as the Gamecube and PS2, despite being the system with the most horsepower... ^_-



Hynad said:

Curl, you're really not doing much to prove your point here.

But it's all good. You've said it yourself that the Wii U is just moderately stronger than the PS3 and 360. Making it a system that is in the same ballpark as those two. The same as the original XBox being in the same ballpark as the Gamecube and PS2, despite being the system with the most horsepower... ^_-

PS2 to original Xbox sounds about right to me; like Wii U, it had twice as much RAM as its Sony rival and a GPU several generations ahead.



curl-6 said:
Hynad said:

Cu l, you're really not doing much to provere your point here.

But it's all good. You've said it yourself that the Wii U is just moderately stronger than therre PS3 and 360. Making it a system that is in the same ballpark as those two. The same as the original XBox being in the same ballpark as the Gamecube and PS2, despite being the system with the most horsepower... ^_-

PS2 to original Xbox sounds about right to me; like Wii U, it had twice as much RAM as its Sony rival and a GPU several generations ahead.


not even close xbox and ps2 are so diffrernt interms of hardware they make the wiiu and 360 seem like twins, yet it could run almost all ports for ps2 ports better with very little effort by using brute force, not to mention the xbox gpu can do shaders while ps2 cant