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Forums - Gaming Discussion - 2D Sonic games or 3D Sonic games? Why?

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Mr Khan on 09 February 2014
spemanig said:
My answer to this kind of sucks. It's annoying, because I know that the 2D Sonic games are almost always better. They just are. Some of the more modern ones suck because the introduce the 3D's cancerous boost and homing attacks, but I think the 2D games perfected themselves with the Sonic Advance series.

That being said, I know that 3D Sonic has the makings to be so much better than the 2D ones. There has never been a good 3D Sonic game. There have been slight slashes of potential, but even the best one (Sonic Lost World) had deep flaws. The Sonic Adventure series is literally unplayable to me. I don't understand how anyone can enjoy those crap games.

3D Sonic can be better than 2D Sonic, but the need to fix some things. And they need to take a page out of Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Galaxy to do it.

1. STOP changing Sonic's core mechanics! In Sonic you run, jump, and gain momentum. That's it. Stop it with the homing, and the boosting.

2. STOP fucking up the camera! It's 2014. How is Sonic Lost world the only 3D Sonic with a competent camera!?

3. STOP putting 2D levels or sections in the game! This shouldn't even have to be a point. This is a 3D game! Leave the 2D levels for 2D Sonic games.

4. STOP making the games so short! It's a level based game. We get it. We love it. How does Mario Galaxy have over 100 levels and Lost World can barely reach anything close to that many 3D levels?

5. STOP trying to make Sonic and action adventure game! Sonic is a speedy platformer. The game is about running and jumping, not stopping and fighting. Not exploration and puzzle solving. Enemies are made to be obstacles, not sparring partners. I can forgive Sonic Boom, because it's a spin off, but stop making the main games center around that shit. And before I get a shit storm, I'm not saying that a Sonic game can't have elements of exploration, but the game shouldn't center around it.

6. STOP dividing gameplay sections with specific characters! There should NEVER be a "Knuckles level" or a "Tail level." You get 100+ stages, where you unlock characters along the way that play pretty much the same with unique quirks for variety, and every character can complete every stage.

7. STOP adding 100+ playable characters! Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy. That's all we'll ever need.

Basically, make Sonic Adventures 2 3D with 100+ stages.

I like points 1-4, though since my favorites are the Sonic Adventure games, disagree with 5-7.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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HylianSwordsman on 09 February 2014
spemanig said:

1. No it isn't difficult to jump in 3D. I played and beat all of Sonic Lost World with out using the homing attack at all unless you couldn't progress without it. All it does is restrict the flow of the game. There's never been a time where it was implemented well, so just get rid of it. Mario can jump in 3D. So can Sonic without extra help. If your game is broken without the homing attack, that's due to shitty level design, not a need for the thing.

2. Glad we agree.

3. Mario 3D World isn't a real 3D Mario. It's an isometric game. Galaxy and Sunshine are real 3D Mario games, and they are both 99% full 3D. 3D Sonic needs to be the same. Get rid of the 2D. You want innovative 2D Sonic Levels? Play a 2D Sonic game.

4. No they weren't. I've never finished ANY Sonic game in over 6 hours.

5. Eh. I don't think it should be action at all. Enemies are just obstacles. When you see them, you're supposed to either thinking of jumping to avoid them or jumping to bounce off of them to continue your momentum. And I don't think that Knucles should be slower paced. Slower than Sonic? Absolutely, but was he slow in any of the 2D games? No. you still felt wicked fast, just not as fast as Sonic. Every one of his moves carries on momentum. His glide cuntinues momentum. His climbing should work like Sonic's "parcore" to carry momentum, only more controlable. His digging does too. That's how "action" should be handles in the 3D games.

6. I don't think that it leads to generic levels at all. Were Sonic 3 and Knuckles' levels generic? No. Any of the Advance levels? No. You can have alternet paths for specific characters, but there should be no character specific level that is required to beat the game. 

7. Yeah.

No, Sonic Adventure 2 was terrible in my opinion. I'd say the closest thing to my vision is the level design of the 3D stages of lost world (only not sectioned off all of the time) with the momentum based platforming of the Sonic Advance trilogy. No homing. No fighting. No nessecary stopping. Just running and jumping. And bring back the breaking the sound barrier. THAT was awesome. In Sonic Advance 2 and 3, if you gain enough speed, you "break the sound barrier," making you get a natural boost in speed, and a trail of images follows you. (It looks exactly like the Lost World effect you get when parkouring.) It's basically a speed reward for maintaining momentum, it happens naturally, and it never gets old.

1. I maintain that it's hard to kill enemies without the homing attack. At least for me, I find that when you have that much speed it's hard to aim, unlike in a Mario game. Maybe you're just a Sonic god.

3. That's not what isometric means. But yes, it's not the same as the other 3D Marios. The point is that I hate absolute statements like "never use a certain perspective". Super Mario Galaxy 2 had some 2D areas, and everyone acts like that game was the best of 7th gen half the time (I liked Galaxy 1 better). I don't see why there can NEVER be ANY instance of 2D. That's all I'm saying.

4. You obviously didn't complete the games anywhere near 100%. But then again you're apparently some sort of Sonic god so maybe you got all the Emblems in under 6 hours, but doing so tended to take me upwards of 100 hours, though that's mostly due to spending so much time in the Chao Garden :3

5. If you're not as fast as Sonic, what's the point? There needs to be a point to every character, or it should just be Sonic. Think Sonic=The Flash, Knuckles=The Juggernaut. Juggernaut isn't as fast as the Flash, but he has uses that the Flash doesn't. With all the momentum he gets, he goes pretty fast, but being him would be a completely different experience than being the Flash. Both Sonic and Knuckles could give the satisfaction of being unstoppable as you plow through levels, Sonic just excels at places without waves of enemies to slow you down, whereas Knuckles could be made strong enough to plow through them like they were hardly there, but wouldn't be as satisfying to go through the less populated areas of the levels with. The Sonic franchise differs from other platformers due to the intense action, something's always happening, scenery is always changing, you overcome obstacles at a breakneck pace. The pure speed of Sonic simply can't do that without developers limiting the types of obstacles involved. As long as you're plowing through obstacles at a breakneck pace, who cares if that takes the form of literal running and jumping across precarious platforms, taking out enemies quickly while moving on unhindered, using various gadgets to keep your momentum going, or navigating a tricky portion full of twists and turns that Sonic lacks the agility to do (he mostly runs straight ahead and needs boosters to change his direction rapidly).

6. Didn't Knuckles and Sonic have different levels? Wow, it's been a long time. I was kinda bored by Sonic Advance honestly, sorry. And having different paths for different characters is dumb. Just give them their own level if you're going to do that, because basically what you've done is create several mostly identical levels with a few minor changes here and there. Imagine Level 1 has path A and B, and Sonic is better for A, and Knuckles for B. You've essentially created 2 levels here, one for Sonic, the other for Knuckles, but they're almost the same except for that one part. Either make one path requiring multiple characters or make different levels altogether for each character.

I only played Advance 1, so I didn't experience that sound barrier breaking thing, but it sounds awesome. Didn't Sonic Rush do that? Still, again, pure speed can't overcome all obstacles, and if speed was all that mattered, they should just have Sonic.



DevilRising on 09 February 2014

2D Sonic. Because some games/franchises, just did not/could not make a successful transition into 3D. Some games are better off staying 2D, and are always better in 2D. Such as.....

Sonic
Contra
Metroid (not counting the Prime games, which were good FP games, but Other M was garbage)
Ninja Gaiden (IMO)
Castlevania (IMO)
etc.



AZWification on 10 February 2014
DevilRising said:
2D Sonic. Because some games/franchises, just did not/could not make a successful transition into 3D. Some games are better off staying 2D, and are always better in 2D. Such as.....

Sonic
Contra
Metroid (not counting the Prime games, which were good FP games, but Other M was garbage)
Ninja Gaiden (IMO)
Castlevania (IMO)
etc.


You are not alone regarding Castlevania.. I don't think I ever enjoyed a  3D Castlevania game. I hated the N64 games, I wasn't too fond of the PS2 games and I don't like Lords of Shadow at all. At  this rate I don't think we will ever get a decent 3D Castlevania game.



                
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Player2 on 10 February 2014

2D Sonic.



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TomaTito on 10 February 2014

Oldskool 2D Sonic.

Tried to like Colours, but I sold it since I had to go through the 3D sections just to get to the 2D stuff, and 2D was gimped needing double jumps/homing attacks/etc to pass through block platforms with a small Sonic due to the stretched out view.



I played the Sonic Lost Worlds demo but it only had the 3D level, and the 2D levels look to have the same faulty design.



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Ronster316 on 10 February 2014

2D........

Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles (Megadrive)
Sonic 1, 2 & Triple Trouble (Game Gear)
Sonic Advance 1, 2 & 3 (GBA)

vs

3D

Sonic Adventure 1 & 2 (Dreamcast)
Sonic 2006 & Unleashed (360/ps3)
Sonic Colours (Wii)
Sonic Lost World (WiiU)

No contest,...... apart from Sonic Adventure 2 & Unleashed, the 3D games have not been all that good, however, with 2D games like Sonic 1, 2 3 & Knuckles, Sonic 1, 2 & Triple Trouble, and all 3 advance games, its a comfortable victory for 2D Sonics IMO.

And i liked the 2D levels in Generations more than the 3D levels.



bucky1965 on 10 February 2014

3D. Though I haven't played a Sonic game since the Dreamcast days and sidescrollers are a dime a dozen.



LiquorandGunFun on 10 February 2014

I dont think I could choose, I do enjoy sonic games both in 2d and 3d forms.



 

DevilRising on 10 February 2014
AZWification said:


You are not alone regarding Castlevania.. I don't think I ever enjoyed a  3D Castlevania game. I hated the N64 games, I wasn't too fond of the PS2 games and I don't like Lords of Shadow at all. At  this rate I don't think we will ever get a decent 3D Castlevania game.


I appreciated what the N64 game(s) were going for. At least they tried. Don't get me wrong, the controls and camera were pretty awful, the platforming and hit detection not great by any means. But I appreciated the time they obviously put into it, and the atmosphere they managed to infuse into the game's areas.

I was actually super-excited for the Dreamcast game "Ressurection", which would have starred CV Legend's Sonja Belmont, whom I still personally consider the better, canon "first vampire hunting Belmont", over the bullshit Igarashi threw out there with Leon. Fuck Leon, seriously. That game was awful. I had high hopes that the DC game would be an improved, natural evolution of what they had attempted (and somewhat failed at) on the N64. The story seemed interesting, the graphics (for the time) looked amazing, the game looked like it was really coming together. And them BAM, cancelled, mysteriously with no real official reasons ever given. I still personally think that the reason Igarashi claimed that Legnd on GB and the N64 titles were "non-canon" is because he wasn't personally involved with them, even though he has publicly denied this. I also personally think he had at least a little something to do with the DC game being cancelled, in favor of his (undoubtedly crappier) PS2 game Lament of Innocence.

 

It's really a fucking shame too, because I love the CV series. My favorite of all time is IV on SNES, probably followed by the original on NES and Symphony of the Night on PS2. I really liked Harmony of Dissonance on GBA also, and Rondo of Blood on TG16 of course. I like a majority of the 2D games, in general.

But yes, "Lords of Shadow" is garbage, and shouldn't even be carrying the CV name. The franchise is pretty much dead, as far as I'm concerned, and that is only further confirmed by the last game "IGA" was actually involved in, Judgement on Wii.....a total abortion both as a CV game AND a fighting game.