It's also a figure that is largely inflated due to bundling, for all platforms, but most heavilly on Nintendo systems, and compared to the install base, current software sales have seen a massive decline, though because the hardware has been discontinued and new software scarce, pinning and accurate figure on why is guesswork at best.

And it's still the only figure we have relating to enjoyment. 

Used games are inherantly rarely the latest, and the occasions they are, stores selling used games price the newly released second hand games so high most people lay down the few bucks extra for a fresh copy, the point here is not "nobody ever plays wii or buys wii games" the point here is that the attach rate does not give an indication of individual customer satisfaction for the platform, as if someone doesnt like it and trades it in, unless its broken it will be sold on and the chances of the new owner buying new software for it during their time with the console, fairly high, so what you see is high software sales per device, as you do with other devies.

That argument might work with other systems, but the Wii software sales were different.  The Wii games that continually sold were usually older games, so used software would impact sales of Nintendo's back catalog significantly.  And you'd think that people who are willing to buy old hardware to save money would also be willing to buy used software.

Tie ratio isn't the be all end all, but it is a good indication of overall satisfaction.  If you could show that Wii hardware was traded in enough to alter this figure, then you might have a point, but you haven't shown that.

I'll let you in on a little background, I worked for many years in the refurbishing business , specifically it was my job to design replacement packaging for used items, as such and in direct cooperation with our clients, I was privvy to the quantity of each packaging type ordered, so I have a fairly clear idea of how frequently Wiis, PS3s and Xbox 360s changed hands through various worldwide game store chains.

If you want proof of this, report this post and request an admin to pm me and I will provide them my credentials to back up these claims, happily.

I'm not doubting you , but that evidence is anecdotal.  I work in game retail (and we do trade ins on systems) and my store has sold far more PS3s than Wiis (or 360s) over the years, even when the Wii was doing well.  That doesn't reflect the reality of sales.   I don't know much about the refurbished industry, but provide some data to back up what you say or it is nothing but anecdote. I find it a little strange that all refurbished units would just go to the UK, so I'm guessing these things are regional.

People obviously still go out and buy new consoles, theres no denying the Wii sold well, but the point i am making here is that someone not liking the system or being bored of it, does not instantly mean that it would be reflected in software sales.

On an individual level, no.  But, if there was some sort of massive boredom and a large quantity of people were trading in their systems, that would obviously be reflected in both software and hardware sales.

Hardware figures don't support you at all on this.   Wii hardware outsold XBox 360 and PS3 until 2010 and was competitive with the two in 2011.  IF each Wii owners only used the console for two months, you'd expect hardware to fall at a much faster rate as the market was flooded with used hardware.  You'd also expect an absolute massive amount of Wii software flooding the market.  The shelves should be covered with used Wii games which should drive down their price, and should lead to incredibly poor sales for older Wii consoles.  This was not the case. Wii games (nintendo's in particular) maintained their value, hardware outsold competition until 2010.  Nothing suggests a massive second hand market of Wiis.

Just like curl you're getting hung up on the idea that im trying to put across that ALL wii owners ditched the console, I'm not, and as i clearly proved earlier in the thread, while i didnt play mine much i still to this day own it and have it set up, new unit hardware numbers have nothing to do with the topic of software sales for used devices.

We were talking about tie ratio, which does involve hardware. I understand that you're not saying all Wii owners ditched their console, but you're clearly indicating that used hardware sales are a big enough factor to artificially inflate the tie ration.  And, you haven't provided evidence for that claim.

As for used hardware, used wiis did flood the market, hell i recall in blockbuster consoles with a game, wiimote and nunchuck being sold for 40 pounds each, while new consoles were still 95, but like with most nintendo hardware, and indeed with other hardware from other platforms, while some people are perfectly fine with a used product, many others are not, and when you consider that a large portion of Wii units were most likely given as presents on birthdays and christmas, theres an inherant stigmata to give a NEW console as a gift, as giving a used item as a gift is seen as cheaping out.

Anecdotal evidence from a pretty insignificant player in the game market.  Blockbuster is pretty much dead.  At any rate, if this was really widespread, and used hardware was so inexpensive, the hardware figures would support that.  When you talk about gifts, you're just piling more speculation on speculation.  You're creating a much more complex explanation for a phenomena that has a simple explanation.

As for Wii games flooding the market, thanks to avid nintendo fans buying marquee titles consistently, such titles hold their value fairly well though are still significantly cheaper than retail, others however..  http://www.gamestop.com/browse/nintendo-wii?nav=16k-3-wii,28xp0,138a  pages and pages and pages of games under $5, at least 3 pages worth under a buck a piece.

There are 4 pages of 360 games under a buck too. Regardless, I was dumb to bring up used games, cause I don't have anything to back that up with.  The long life span of Nintendo games however is a good sign that people are keeping these games rather than trading them in, and that there is no flood of used software that should accompany a flood of used hardware.

There is simply nothing to suggest that people sold their Wiis within months.  None of the data we have supports that AT ALL.  If that were the case, you'd see software for the back catalog fall due to used software, and you'd see a very steep decline in new hardware sales far before 2012.  

Again, data does not reflect used market impact because used market only bolsters software attachment rates by providing active buyers, key titles will always be priced high and as mentioned above, there will always be a stigmata behind toys (and sorry, games consoles are exactly that), to buy new devices when giving gifts.

All the data gives you is how many consoles were sold and how many games were sold, these two figures do not paint a complete picture, so using these figures in defence without any other sort of information to back it up does nothing.

When we take that picture into account with the sales of hardware and software across the years, we get a pretty good indication of customer satisfaction.  If Wii hardware was being returned in droves you would expect certain things.  You would expect the new hardware to drop rapidly due to poor word of mouth, poor buzz, and cheaper used hardware.  You'd expect sales of older games to drop due to used software traded in with hardware.

If you want to support your theory, show the results of the massive Wii returns.  Surely what you're suggesting would have huge ramifications.  What are they?  All you could suggest is that this artificially inflated the Wii's tie ratio, and as the Wii's tie ratio is LOWER than either of its competitors, this hardly supports you.  So, where can we see the effects of this massive Wii exodus?  And if we can't show based on the figures available that happened, what have you offered by speculation?

Are you suggesting that the Wii outsold the XBox 360 and PS3 and each Wii had about 3 owners?  So... about 300 million people owned a Wii at one point in time?  The data does not support that.

I am suggesting that at least 20-30% (potentially 30-40%) of Wii's had at least 2 owners, from my experience in the refurb industry and from general observations of sites such as ebay, these figures are a little lower for PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360 primarilly due to a large portion of users being weary of used units due to hardware issues.

Completely and totally anecdotal.  If that's your opinion, whatever, you're entitled to it.  If you want others to believe you, then you need something to back it up.  "General observations of ebay" doesn't cut it.

In that case, the PS3 was traded in WAY more than the Wii cause it has a higher tie ratio.  The XBox 360 is more traded in then both systems since it has the highest attach rate.  Congrats.  You've just proved that the Wii was the most loved console of its generation.

PS3 and 360 were traded in at roughly 70% of the Wii's trade in rate, and indeed these consoles, if working, would go on to be used and contribute towards sales of new and used titles from their new owners, the difference here is that these consoles are still on the market and games are still being produced and released for them in significant numbers, but if you want to twist that for your agenda, theres clearly no stopping you.

"If anything the high software sales compared to hardware sales suggests that a lot of it was down to second hand unit owners buying games, which suggests a lot of users did not stick with their purchases."

Uhhhhhh... Dude.  You said high tie ratio shows that more people did not stick with their purchase.  YOU said that, not ME.  If YOU think that high tie ratios show that the Wii was traded in a lot we would have to apply that same logic to its competitors.  The Wii had a lower tie ratio than other systems.  To ME that would imply a lower overall satisfaction.  But based on YOUR statement, that would show that the Wii had higher satisfaction.  That is YOUR argument.  Whether that's what you meant or not that's what YOU said.  I didn't twist anything.  YOU said it.

And the Wii sold at a higher rate... so it makes sense it would be traded in more even if customers are as satisfied overall.  I don't know when you worked at wherever you worked, but right now the Wii has sold about 100,000,000 and its competitors have sold around 80,000,000.  So, we would expect PS3 and XBox trade ins to be at about 80% of the Wiis.  When you factor in that those consoles had more models and more hardware problems (particularly with the 360) the ratio you provided doesn't seem abnormally high for the Wii.

The Wii has been discontinued, just as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 have been discontinued, the only consoles now available at the Wii Mini, Xbox 360 Slim, and PlayStation 3 super slim.

We're talking about the ratio of software sales to the hardware that plays that software.  In the context of this conversation, how is it at all relevant whether one buys a Wii or a Wii mini particularly as our tie ratio comes from VGChartz which tracks them as the same?  When we're comparing hardware sales to software sales, the only think that is relevant is that the hardware in question plays the software in question.

And yes, software is still moving, at least 1 out of every 100 wiis is being fed a new game.

Less actually.  Software was about 40 million for the Wii this year, minus about 3 million for bundled games.  The Wii's tie ratio is going down, which means satisfaction is likely going down, which is perfectly expected as software support is cutting off. However, this doesn't change the overall trend over the console's lifespan all that much.

That means that despite a lack of new owners, people who already own the system are still playing it and still buying new software.  To make it more apparent lets exagerrate.  Suppose 1 Wii was sold and 5 million pieces of software were sold.  That means that people who already own the Wii are buying lots of games, which means they likely are happy with their purchase. 

The number of hardware versus the number of software sold at this point means nothing, ratios for what is essentially a dead console will not provide a worthwhile figure, that does not mean however that the 100m or so units sold will no longer result in any sales, and at no point have i ever claimed that, however, selling one piece of software per 100 units sold, does not suggest in any way that a large portion of the consumer base are still happy with their purchase, it simply means that a small number of owners are still buying software, or taking advantage of something people worldwide like to call "January sales".

I honestly can't read this.  I'm not trying to be rude, but the whole thing is one sentence, and I just don't get what is being said.

Again, there is absoultely nothing to suggest that the second hand market you claim exists did.  In fact, all evidence is to the contrary.  The long sales life of Nintendo software, the rate of hardware sales, and the continued value of Nintendo's software all go against your theory.

Sorry, but I worked too long peddling numbers back and forth for the likes of Gamestop, EB, Blockbusters and so on to agree with you, and you're clearly far too weighted on your opinion (read, biased) to budge on your preconvieved reality of the situation, so discussing this further is a waste of our time.

Then provide numbers. You haven't provided any evidence to support your position besides "I worked at a refurb center".   If that's your experience, then fine, but if you want me to believe that what you're saying has any sort of broader implications, then I need some sort of proof.  Don't post speculation with no hard evidence and then call people biased when they don't take your word for it.   You've provided nothing but theories which are not supported in the hard data that we have.

If you don't choose to reply, that's fine.  I'm not here to tell you how to live your life.  However, don't reply, leave me without a chance to defend myself, and then dismiss any future arguments (read: cop out).  If you choose to reply, do so with respect.