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Forums - General Discussion - Is the evolution story really scientific?

Licence said:
ganoncrotch said:
fps_d0minat0r said:
How is it possible to question evolution?
I dont understand....
And what is the alternative theory?


God did it.


God is, by definition, a supernatural entity. Science is, by definition, the study of nature. Hence any theory that involves God is, by definition, not scientific.

This is somethingt that many people seems to struggle with. Once you put God i to any mix, science has to leave the room.

If you want to put God into a scientific theory as the ID crowd loves to do, then you must redefine God as a natural entity. And then you must admit that God has natural origins, and must make an attempt to explain those origins via natural means. Since theists resist such a "nature-based" property of God, all attempts to put God into a scientific theory is incoherent.


Oh yeah I agree completely that it adds nothing to be discussed beyond those 3 words, might as well say a wizard done it, it implies magic rather that reason there is no discussing it because it's just the one word which cannot be discussed it's "as it was written" in a book 1500 or so years ago. I personally find it odd that anyone believed in it then, I find it more strange that there are even more believers in it now, scary even more than strange if I'm honest that common sense is the minority in 2013.



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padib said:

That's not it at all. The Intelligent Design community are simply not satisfied with an explanation to what they see as high intelligence by means of non-intelligent processes. They might not even be believers in God...

To disregard the severe challenges to evolution is also non-scientific, so I would prefer go the way of looking into a framework that considers divinity in order to understand the past, rather than shun it, because odds are infinitely higher that the route that considers divinity will be more accurate.

The problem is that the very logic you use to disregard intelligence stemming from non-intelligent processes is the very same logic that could be applied to any intelligent design theory. You can't suggest that intelligence must come from intelligen processes without also giving an explanation for the origin of the intelligent processes in the first place.



Interactive demonstration of genetic evolution: http://www.flickr.com/photos/craig_reynolds/sets/72157624897113048/

The most visible specimens are eaten (clicked by user). Remaining specimens reproduce.



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padib said:

Common sense is the complete opposite of what you hold true. If I show you this image, will you tell me it was randomly produced by a computer program?

Nothing random about it.

It was made through many small incremental brush strokes.  It did not materialize out of thin air in one piece as the Bible would tell you the world, humans and all animals were created.



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padib said:

Jay, this question always comes up and the answer is always simple.

The origin of our world need not be bound by the rules of our world. I'd assume something that made our world is beyond it in every way.

An analogy: in reboot, the world they live in is a program, certainly under different rules than the world of the creators.


Fair enough...I guess.

Anyway, why is it that intelligence cannot stem from unintelligent processes?



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padib said:
BMaker11 said:

If you see that Wendy Wright interview, she does exactly bonzobana said.

With regard to "like what", I already gave examples. But to expand: Lightning was thought to come up because the gods were angry. Nope, just electrons bouncing around in the atmosphere. Crops growing was thought to be because the gods were pleased with your work, so they grew your food. Nope, it was just plants growing in a good farming season. Thought that the gods were shaking the earth, for some reason, and that caused earthquakes. Nope, tectonic plates. Thought gods caused possessions (via demons). Nope, epilepsy. Thought gods caused eclipses. Nope, just the moon moving in between the earth and sun. Thought gods caused diseases and sickness (also, via demons). Nope, germs.

You see where I'm going with this?

If the bible is true, then germs would be evil in origin, even if they are defined by science, science does not provide their spiritual origin, that's religion's job. Science describes, religion gives the purpose.

According to the bible, disease, predation and thorns are part of the curse at the fall of man. You have no way to prove that such things did not exist prior to the fall (say 6k years ago). Also, there are reports of prayer healing people, and there is a lot of work done on the power of the mind over disease. So it still begs the question.

Are cheese, wine and yoghurt also evil? Considering we use microrganisms to make them and they're all evil in origin, they must be right? So the symbolic blood of Christ is evil?

What about the bacteria in our bodies that we need to survive?



The point was that we don't expect anyone to believe that the picture was not made by a painter. When we see a picture, we know there's a painter.  To the best of our logic, we know it's created by a natural being following natural laws, and not a wizard.

A picture is too complex to create randomly in one step, just like our DNA with what they say has over 3 Gigabits of data, could not be created in one go randomly. The odds are beyond astronomical. And that's not what evolution implies. Evolution implies that many many small incremental changes which are "directed" by selection, can add up to very complex systems over time.



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padib said:

It could, but it is highly unlikely. If I see a drawing in the middle of nowhere, say a picture on a barren beach, will I assume it came from random unintelligent processes?

You know the answer to that. You would have to make a serious effort to deny the obvious in order to convince yourself that that picture was not produced by a printer.

Drawings, by definitions, are made by painters...I know the "designer" argument with the painter, builder, designer, etc. But I always thought it was terrible because it only works if you use man-made objects...which obviously have creators. 

Anyway, you have no idea what's unlikely. The universe is unbelievably huge. Estimates say that there are nearly 8.8 billion Earth-like planets in our galaxy alone. And there are estimated to be over 100 billion galaxies in the observable universe. Not the entire universe, just the observable part. And that's just within the extremely tiny time zone that humanity is able to observe, which is only a fraction of the universe's actual age.

And that's just our universe. No one knows how many other universes exist (if any) and how long they've been in existence. The numbers could literally reach into infinity...at which point, even the most unlikeliest happenings would be inevitable.

I mean, how big/old would you require the universe to be before something like life becomes a fair possibility? I haven't done the math, but I don't see anything unlikely about it.



padib said:

Also, even if patterns in the universe could generate the complexity of life as we know it (which is for all suits and purposes impossible), and honest thinker would have to wonder: why are there laws in the universe, why is there an order, a direction? Why gravity, why energy, why matter? What is the origin to it all?


Do you think these laws somehow make our universe special? For all we know, our universe could be a moderately complex universe. There could be infinitely more universes with more complex laws or with less compex laws. There could be some universes with no laws at all, and subsequently popped out of existence. Who the hell knows? There's no reason to believe that our group of laws is special and that there needs to be some divine explanation behind it all. 



padib said:
ICStats said:
padib said:

 

 

.

 

Seriously can you guys be any less constructive right now? It feels like you are just defying my posts for the sake of it.

 


you know you did just answer a number of posts with the word "No"? like you want other people to bother reading what you have to say and form a proper response for you, where  you do not offer that same courtesy? No



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