Grey Acumen said: Andir said: God would have to manifest himself in front of me, answer a few questions about my being, and my life and answer them correctly. I would ask him to describe my innermost secrets. That to me is not beyond what you describe as God. He should be able to do this for whomever asks of it at their request. Not when it's convenient. In fact, right now would be good. This God should appear in my room as I type this, touch me on the shoulder and say. "Hey, I'm here." I'm still waiting even as I hit "Post" your scenario has two possibile outcomes. 1) You refuse to admit God exists despite him actually coming down and doing everything you have just now said. 2) God proves beyond your ability to deny that he exists. You now no longer have any choice but to believe that he exists. You've given up your free will. So basically, God gave you free will and will not take it away. You have the choice to beleive or not believe that he exists, but because he loves all of his children, he will respect that choice no matter how wrong it may be or how much trouble you're going to be giving yourself in the end. Of course, just because we respect the fact that you have free will doesn't mean the rest of us aren't going to do our best to point out where your logic is flawed in order to keep you from doing something that you'll end up regretting. God isn't a Genie. He created us, and so he has no need to hop around catering to our whims. The idea that him not showing up at your beck and call as being any sign of his inexistence is downright retarded.

 

You could still believe in something less likely (I.e you were hyponised you to see what is described).

Therefore free will is mantained.

Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Isn't the status quo set by what most people believe? Most people believe there is some sort of god, though disagree which one is the case. Therefore you in fact would have to prove it as such. There is also no proof that the existance of belief in a god didn't originate itself with consious thought. Status Quo - the existing state of affairs; specifically : the last actual and uncontested state of affairs that preceded a controversy and that is to be preserved by preliminary injunction In other words, the status quo was the time before religion was introduced. Number of believers doesn't mean anything. If I get everyone in the world to state that fire doesn't burn, would that make it the status quo and therefore true? Also, I was raised without the mention of anything relating to a god or religion (meaning there wa neither "god is great" nor "there is no god" in my house at all) until I was 8-ish. And then I remember my grandmother teaching me how to pray and my mom being pissy about it. I couldn't understand why my mother was so angry about it back then, but right now it makes perfect sense. In an environment where the person is not introduced to god he will simply not believe just because he has never been brainwashed into believing in something purely based on faith. Then where did the idea of God come from in the first place? I answered that in the following post. It has been spawned by the ignorance of humans when the brain is constructed to work with a cause and effect structure of learning. Yet you believe no one would believe in god if left on their own and no one was told of god. That's uh, quite contradictory to say the least. Since then not talking about god would not in fact create no god. But in fact every individual person would create their own god that makes the most sense to them to fill in the things they are ignorant about. In other words, you wouldn't be an atheist, you would believe in your own tailored god that best suits your ignorance. This god you would believe in whole heartidly as he would be the only one you would ever have heard of, and there would be no contradictions in your mind about how he does stuff. Based on your premise. Organized religion is needed or atleast talk of god is needed for people to not believe in god. In which case, organized religion should be quite a valuable thing to the atheist. If you had noticed I specifically stated that just about all everyday things we encounter can be easily explained in one way or another. Only by going really deep in a specific field of study does one reach a unexplainable phenomena. That area of science is Physics, and anyone bright enough to reach the unexplained phenomena would not think that there is a god causing them, instead he'd try to find whatever causes them. Hence if no one is preached about a god or religion people would just end up not being religious. Ok. Explain consiousness. (Note, you won't be able to. Psychology doesn't have any real answers on the matter.) Also it's not just physics. There is no science that is properly fleshed out. Also, i just generally disagree with your premise. The more we learn of science, the more we learn that there is no real explainable beggining. Which means either infinite "real" time has passed before now or something happened that created everything. After all the Big Bang created the universe... but something created the Big Bang... etc.

No, we can't fully grasp consciousness just yet, but we're getting there. I suggest you pick up the Scientific American that ran 2 or 3 months ago. Their cover story was exactly that, "What is consciousness?" you might find it interesting. Also as I said before, just because we cannot understand what happened at the big bang right now doesn't mean it was an act of god. As I said earlier, back in the good old days a friken bolt of lightning starting a fire was considered just as mysterious and just as big an act of god as the said beginning. That said, every time any religious person has set a starting point as "the beginning that god set off," it has usually been pushed back. We just so happen to be living in the time where this starting point is the Big Bang. As a final point, everything IS just physics. Physics directly leads to chemistry and how particles react to each other. From there we get electricity, heat, everything. The only thing that physics rests upon is actually math. So in technicality you can say that just about everything in existence can be described in terms of mathematical equations. Therefore any field that has not been compeetely fleshed out can be directly linked to the lack of knowledge in the physics area which leads to lack of knowledge in the chemistry area which leads to lack of knowledge to just about anything.

veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Kasz216 said: veiam said: Isn't the status quo set by what most people believe? Most people believe there is some sort of god, though disagree which one is the case. Therefore you in fact would have to prove it as such. There is also no proof that the existance of belief in a god didn't originate itself with consious thought.   Status Quo - the existing state of affairs; specifically : the last actual and uncontested state of affairs that preceded a controversy and that is to be preserved by preliminary injunction In other words, the status quo was the time before religion was introduced. Number of believers doesn't mean anything. If I get everyone in the world to state that fire doesn't burn, would that make it the status quo and therefore true? Also, I was raised without the mention of anything relating to a god or religion (meaning there wa neither "god is great" nor "there is no god" in my house at all) until I was 8-ish. And then I remember my grandmother teaching me how to pray and my mom being pissy about it. I couldn't understand why my mother was so angry about it back then, but right now it makes perfect sense. In an environment where the person is not introduced to god he will simply not believe just because he has never been brainwashed into believing in something purely based on faith.   Then where did the idea of God come from in the first place?     I answered that in the following post. It has been spawned by the ignorance of humans when the brain is constructed to work with a cause and effect structure of learning. Yet you believe no one would believe in god if left on their own and no one was told of god. That's uh, quite contradictory to say the least. Since then not talking about god would not in fact create no god. But in fact every individual person would create their own god that makes the most sense to them to fill in the things they are ignorant about. In other words, you wouldn't be an atheist, you would believe in your own tailored god that best suits your ignorance. This god you would believe in whole heartidly as he would be the only one you would ever have heard of, and there would be no contradictions in your mind about how he does stuff. Based on your premise. Organized religion is needed or atleast talk of god is needed for people to not believe in god. In which case, organized religion should be quite a valuable thing to the atheist.   If you had noticed I specifically stated that just about all everyday things we encounter can be easily explained in one way or another. Only by going really deep in a specific field of study does one reach a unexplainable phenomena. That area of science is Physics, and anyone bright enough to reach the unexplained phenomena would not think that there is a god causing them, instead he'd try to find whatever causes them. Hence if no one is preached about a god or religion people would just end up not being religious. Ok. Explain consiousness. (Note, you won't be able to. Psychology doesn't have any real answers on the matter.) Also it's not just physics. There is no science that is properly fleshed out. Also, i just generally disagree with your premise. The more we learn of science, the more we learn that there is no real explainable beggining. Which means either infinite "real" time has passed before now or something happened that created everything. After all the Big Bang created the universe... but something created the Big Bang... etc.   No, we can't fully grasp consciousness just yet, but we're getting there. I suggest you pick up the Scientific American that ran 2 or 3 months ago. Their cover story was exactly that, "What is consciousness?" you might find it interesting. Also as I said before, just because we cannot understand what happened at the big bang right now doesn't mean it was an act of god. As I said earlier, back in the good old days a friken bolt of lightning starting a fire was considered just as mysterious and just as big an act of god as the said beginning. That said, every time any religious person has set a starting point as "the beginning that god set off," it has usually been pushed back. We just so happen to be living in the time where this starting point is the Big Bang. As a final point, everything IS just physics. Physics directly leads to chemistry and how particles react to each other. From there we get electricity, heat, everything. The only thing that physics rests upon is actually math. So in technicality you can say that just about everything in existence can be described in terms of mathematical equations. Therefore any field that has not been compeetely fleshed out can be directly linked to the lack of knowledge in the physics area which leads to lack of knowledge in the chemistry area which leads to lack of knowledge to just about anything.

Does it mean god created everything? Nah, however, you gotta ask. What created everything? Whatever did would be god. Does that mean it's some guy in a beard on a cloud? Maybe, maybe not.

Either that or everything has always existed. In which there is an infinite amount of time that existed before this point. Which is tricky. Since how could we get to this point otherwise.

These are the two possibilties that currently exist. When two possibilties exist... one must take one as what they believe to be true and try and disprove it. Something that is going to be hard to do. Since we can't even perceive "real time" to dissprove it.

So we'd have to disprove that something created everything, which to do. We would need to prove that stuff has existed forever... which once again would require "real time"

What happens when people reach the dead ends that man will never be able to comprhend. Just how a 2-D man can't understand 3-D there are a number of things that we won't be able to ever perceive. Like "true" time.

No amount of science or math will make such a thing possible.

As for math.  The way we do math isn't even perfect.  I mean

.9999~= 1 

For some reason we need two ways to say 1 or we've screwed up math. 

Pi.  A very important number is apparently a giant number so massive we don't know the end of.  It's an irrational number.

Furthmore we have many numbers and concepts in math that just don't really exist.  Like Imaginary numbers.  That are created because we need them do understand some sciences and other things.  Despite the fact that these numbers don't really exist.

If math really does describe the entire universe and is a universal thing.  I'd say were were doing math wrong. 

Does it really explain the entire universe?  Or is math just something we've invented to try and explain the univese.  Much like words?

 

I love the way every person who is argueing for creationism has totaly disregarded my posts on the last page prooving that evolution exists. lol

Creationism 0
Evolution 1

Grey Acumen said: your scenario has two possibile outcomes. 1) You refuse to admit God exists despite him actually coming down and doing everything you have just now said. 2) God proves beyond your ability to deny that he exists. You now no longer have any choice but to believe that he exists. You've given up your free will. So basically, God gave you free will and will not take it away. You have the choice to beleive or not believe that he exists, but because he loves all of his children, he will respect that choice no matter how wrong it may be or how much trouble you're going to be giving yourself in the end. Of course, just because we respect the fact that you have free will doesn't mean the rest of us aren't going to do our best to point out where your logic is flawed in order to keep you from doing something that you'll end up regretting. God isn't a Genie. He created us, and so he has no need to hop around catering to our whims. The idea that him not showing up at your beck and call as being any sign of his inexistence is downright retarded.

There you go again, degrading me and putting yourself on a higher platform.  If it's not calling me immature, it's because I have some sort of brain defect.  I see a pattern emerging here.  There MUST be something wrong with me because I refuse to believe what cannot be proven.

And your argument goes back to the cop out counterpoint that God exists and is all powerful, but since we are merely pawns in some greater scheme, we are beneath him and must just accept.  For refusing to accept that we are meaningless sheep is denying the word of God.  What a depressing viewpoint.  "Just accept it because I say so, and you can't change it."  "I don't need to prove that I exist because I said so."  Or, how would I phrase it... "Your wants and needs don't matter, because I am the only on e here that matters.  Just live with it, and get me my bacon bitches!"

 

Edit:  also... I would argue that I'm not giving up my free will.  I would still have the choice to follow his word and be accepted into the club when I die... So that argument could quickly be nullified.

 

Hey everyone, I have a book that speaks only the truth. Wanna know how I know it speaks only the truth? It says so in the book!
I could found my own religion (and indeed there are those who have in the past) and make my God say anything to befit me as I progress through life.
That's what happens to religion too; as time goes by it changes slowly to adapt to modern man, straying away from the core material slowly but certainly.

But no one cares what I think, so I'll go read "Magician" by Raymond Feist again, now that's a holy book!

Just a few things I've read and would like to comment on in this section.

1) The 144,000 that Revelation refers too does not mean the exact number of people that will be passing on to Heaven. If your a Jehovah's Witness and that offends you....sorry....but the number does not refer to the people who will specifically go to Heaven.

The 144,000 speaks specifically about the 12,000 chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel who are sealed with the sign of the lamb on their foreheads. Christian teachings claims that the numbers 12,000 and 144,000 are symbolic for the end of the world. The constant belief is that the 144,000 will be related to the Sons of Jacob (descendants) and will be pivotal in the end times. As for us normal people who still hold faith in Christ we will not be denied Heaven.

2) Also, Science tells us that Something cannot be created from nothing and it also tells us that any process must be influenced by Entropy. However, the big bang tries to tell us that the universe (a whole lot of something) was all of a sudden created by a whole lot of nothing. Which, any real scientist can tell you, doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Oh, and the universe, which one would assume would be slowing down due to the laws that we assume govern all processes. However, the universe (which we have observed) does not seem to be slowing down nor showing any signs of slowing at all. Like clockwork the universe continues to run and run yet Science (as we observe it) cannot explain how.

3) Also, I would just like to say a few things that -I- have observed about God and try to answer many of the paradoxal questions that many atheists and deniers try to twist around to trap believers.

A) Is God All-Powerful? Yes, He is capable of doing anything he so chooses because he is the true form of inspiration which is necessary for Creation. If he is able to create it then he is able to do with the creation as he pleases.

B) Is there anything God cannot do? (Example: Create a rock he cannot lift)? The answer, again, is Yes. There are some things that God cannot do....not because it is not within his power to do so but because his description makes him incapable of using his powers for certain things. Because God is the truest form of Love and and is considered the greatest source of "good" in the Universe his own omnipotence makes him unable to commit acts of evil or create an object which is greater than he is because there can be nothing greater.

C) If God is All-knowing then why do we have Free-will? A lot of people fear this about God because they fear that their lives are planned out before them and that their are pre-destined to go to Heaven or Hell. I, submit to you, that is not the case at all. The true definition of Omniscience is "all-seeing" but I don't want to split hairs. I think God, who created us to truly love him by choice and not by force, has chosen himself not to know what our own choices will be concerning our love for him. Think of it like a flow-chart. He knows and sees that you will be coming up on a spiritual decision that will take you possibly down one of two paths. God, willingly, does not look to see what you will choose because if he did then it would remove our freewill and therefore "closes his eyes" at least thats the only logical solution I can think of concerning free-will.

D) What is Sin? Ahhh, this is my favorite theory here. Many just write sin off as just a "transgression against God" which, in actuality, is what it is. However, I have surmised that Sin is not just an act but a malevolent force which works in opposition to God. I don't just mean Satan/Lucifer either. If Lucifer fell from Heaven because he had sinned then wouldn't Satan/Lucifer then be an instument of Sin instead of the creator of it? Satan/Lucifer does not have the powers of creation so it is logical to assume that Sin's potential rise has always been there. Heck, perhaps Sin and God are mortal enemies in the scheme of things and God has been trying to destroy Sin and many of our decisions in life is a way to destroy it once and for all.

Think about it...Sin is technically an Anti-thesis to God in every way.
- God is Love, Sin is Lust
- God is Justice, Sin is Wrath
- God is Creation, Sin is Destruction
- God is Truth, Sin is Lies
- God is compassionate, Sin is Apathy
- God is Life, Sin is Death
- God is Light, Sin is Darkness

Very strange when you view it that way isn't it? Now, don't confuse this with Zoroastrianism because I don't think that Sin is the shadow of God. I just think that Sin is an adverse effect to Free-willed creation....much like a By-product and this "Sin" spreads about like a weed and infests everything that is gets inside. Which makes a lot of sense if you think about it because does not one person who lives in deep Sin drag all others down around him/her?

Anyways, thats my view on it. Also, I hope that none of my views have offended fellow Christians because I just want to say that I DO believe in the same Living God and I believe that Jesus was the Son of God and was the savior of mankind. If anyone wants to take up any questions against my attempts at logical assumption then by all means, reply.

catprog said: Grey Acumen said: Andir said: God would have to manifest himself in front of me, answer a few questions about my being, and my life and answer them correctly. I would ask him to describe my innermost secrets. That to me is not beyond what you describe as God. He should be able to do this for whomever asks of it at their request. Not when it's convenient. In fact, right now would be good. This God should appear in my room as I type this, touch me on the shoulder and say. "Hey, I'm here." I'm still waiting even as I hit "Post" your scenario has two possibile outcomes. 1) You refuse to admit God exists despite him actually coming down and doing everything you have just now said. 2) God proves beyond your ability to deny that he exists. You now no longer have any choice but to believe that he exists. You've given up your free will. So basically, God gave you free will and will not take it away. You have the choice to beleive or not believe that he exists, but because he loves all of his children, he will respect that choice no matter how wrong it may be or how much trouble you're going to be giving yourself in the end. Of course, just because we respect the fact that you have free will doesn't mean the rest of us aren't going to do our best to point out where your logic is flawed in order to keep you from doing something that you'll end up regretting. God isn't a Genie. He created us, and so he has no need to hop around catering to our whims. The idea that him not showing up at your beck and call as being any sign of his inexistence is downright retarded.   You could still believe in something less likely (I.e you were hyponised you to see what is described). Therefore free will is mantained.

Please read properly

Andir said: Grey Acumen said: your scenario has two possibile outcomes. 1) You refuse to admit God exists despite him actually coming down and doing everything you have just now said. 2) God proves beyond your ability to deny that he exists. You now no longer have any choice but to believe that he exists. You've given up your free will. So basically, God gave you free will and will not take it away. You have the choice to beleive or not believe that he exists, but because he loves all of his children, he will respect that choice no matter how wrong it may be or how much trouble you're going to be giving yourself in the end. Of course, just because we respect the fact that you have free will doesn't mean the rest of us aren't going to do our best to point out where your logic is flawed in order to keep you from doing something that you'll end up regretting. God isn't a Genie. He created us, and so he has no need to hop around catering to our whims. The idea that him not showing up at your beck and call as being any sign of his inexistence is downright retarded.   There you go again, degrading me and putting yourself on a higher platform. If it's not calling me immature, it's because I have some sort of brain defect. I see a pattern emerging here. There MUST be something wrong with me because I refuse to believe what cannot be proven. And your argument goes back to the cop out counterpoint that God exists and is all powerful, but since we are merely pawns in some greater scheme, we are beneath him and must just accept. For refusing to accept that we are meaningless sheep is denying the word of God. What a depressing viewpoint. "Just accept it because I say so, and you can't change it." "I don't need to prove that I exist because I said so." Or, how would I phrase it... "Your wants and needs don't matter, because I am the only on e here that matters. Just live with it, and get me my bacon bitches!"   Edit: also... I would argue that I'm not giving up my free will. I would still have the choice to follow his word and be accepted into the club when I die... So that argument could quickly be nullified.

Hey, I calls em as I sees em. If you, as a child, refused to believe your parents loved you unless they gave you a cookie, I would consider you to have a brain defect.

You seem to think that just because there is something greater than us that will always be out of our reach, that it's meaningless. One of the arguably most simple yet fun games ever invented is Tetris, and theoretically, the game could have no upper limit, you keep on striving to achieve a higher and higher level, and there is no limit to how much you can achieve. God exists because he is that ever increasing infinite upper level for us to strive towards. No matter how great we become or how much we learn in the universe there will ALWAYS be more to learn, better ways to understand things, there is no limit to how high of a level we can achieve.

I dunno, maybe you look at an infinite number of things to learn as being too difficult for you or something, but I see it as no matter how much I learn and achieve, there will always be something left for me to do, there will never be a point at which I have to stop growing.

 

 

highwaystar101 said: I love the way every person who is argueing for creationism has totaly disregarded my posts on the last page prooving that evolution exists. lol Creationism 0 Evolution 1

Its simple, god created each one of those creatures, then blasted them out of existance when he made the next, OBVIOUSLY!

Trust me, I know how you feel, I have had about a dozen unanswered posts...

There has been too much between my lost post and this so I will try to sum up.

I have never claimed to disprove A god (lower case) but what I have displayed is a proof of the impossibility of God (upper case.)  I did not say its completely impossible for a not all-powerful, not all-knowing, not perfect, not all pressent god to exist (ie old roman and greek gods,) but the christian view of god is impossible (and by implication the bible is can't be perfectly, divinely inspired by said 'God')

But as many pointed out, the owness is not on the proof of the non existance of a god, its on the existance of god.  Things are not true until they are proved wrong.  Its the other way around.

As to WHY god WOULD create another all powerful being is completely irellevent.  He could, therefore its possible that what I stated before could happen, and therefore that god wouldn't be all those things in all situations (I don't need to reiterate)

Secondly, if said God exists, who are you to think that you would know what he would and wouldn't do?  Why would god create billions of people he knew would burn for eternity in hellfire?  Why would god create a child that he knew would (and he was the cause to) die at the age of 6 from cancer?  Why, according to strict interpretations, a mentally handicapped person who couldn't understand the idea of retribution and redemption be denied heavan due to his inability to truely accept jesus as his savior?  Why would god, who would be beyond the touch of time, in one breath claim to murder your  fellow man, and then the next say, "oh all that doesn't apply any more?" 

'God has a plan,' is the answer you will get from many, and how can you claim you know what is or isn't in this plan that spans on for infinity in both temporal directions (all temporal directions perhaps?)

And on another thought... 

How can a god who is all knowing 'Discover' any thing or 'notice' or any other actions in which not knowing is a prerequisite, as is stated MANY times in the bible?

Grey Acumen said: catprog said: Grey Acumen said: 2) God proves beyond your ability to deny that he exists. You now no longer have any choice but to believe that he exists. You've given up your free will. You could still believe in something less likely (I.e you were hyponised you to see what is described). Therefore free will is mantained. Please read properly

There is always those who believe what is beyond the ability of a rational person to deny.  There is still to this day a group of strict biblical interpretests called the flat earth society that believe, since the bible says jesus ascended to heaven, there must be an absolute up and an absolute down, and therefore the earth is flat.  All those telling you its round are lying or lack all faith, and all effects that seem to show you that the earth is round with your senses are optical illusions.

There is always a choice to deny, but if truely knowing something to be true takes away free will we are all screwed.  Do you exist?  Well yes I KNOW I have to exist because I am experiencing this right now (though I am not sure i completely agree with that proof either.) Any way, you no longer have a choice to believe that you exist so therefore you don't have free will.  Utter nonsense.