BMW might be average, but Chevy and Dodge are far below average. My sister owned a 1998 BMW 318i, and she was an agressive driver. We just threw out the car last year at 290,000km. My friends 2002 Impala, with a careful slow parent driver, is dead at 210,000km. My other friend has a Pontiac Montana minivan, and just after spending $3,000 on a new transmission, they are throwing it out with a busted engine at 140,000km. I know actually quite a few American car owners, my parents even used to own a Chevy and a Ford, and I have yet to meet someone with a Chevy with over 230,000km.

LOL that you think their reliability is on par, wow. One of my friends has a Toyota 4-Runner, it's pushing 450,000km, with no major repairs (not even a busted AC). Another person I know has a Tacoma with 330,000km. My Acura is about 220,000km, and it's running fine, I just really want RWD, and I'm setting money aside.

BMW's are expesnive to repair, I agree with you there, that's why Subaru has the first 3 votes on my poll, LOL. Yea, while my sisters BMW did last long, when something broke it cost $700-$2,000 to fix, and something broke every year. Benz is better, the old SEC we had only had a broken AC, and a broken exhaust pipe. The exhaust pipe only cost $200 to fix, the AC $2,000, so we just never fixed it. We eventually sold it because the gas was bad, there was a lot of rust, and regular engine work (like new spark plugs, and oil changes) just cost a lot of money because this was a 5.6L V8. It had about 240,000km.

Ford I think is okay. One of my friends has a Mustang with 170,000km, and it's running okay. We threw out out Crown Vic at 245,000km, we literally drove it until the engine seized. I think a Ford taken care of can make 250,000km, which isn't bad. I dismissed the Mustang though because I don't like the way it drives, and I'm not crazy about the look. I haven't driven a challenger, but one of my friends was looking at Camaro's and I pushed him to get a Mustang, but we test drove both in the process. The Camaro feels like a low riding truck, the suspension is really soft, the car really leans when you corner hard, and it's so needlessly bulky. The Mustang was A LOT better to drive, but it still feels very heavy, not very nimble. To put in in perspective, I think my FWD sedan handles about as well.

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As for the BRZ, I was actually really surprised at this car. The back seats are surprisingly big, the car is well designed. I had more room in the rear then in the back seat of a Camaro, but the Mustang and BMW 3 coupe series are the biggest in the back, I wouldn't want anyone as tall, or taller then me in the back of a BRZ for long, I'm 5'9.

Also the BRZ, while really.....really slow in a straight line, handles amazingly on the corners. Now, let me just say, I took a racing program at Mostport, I have a racing licence, and I've been on a track with an F2000 car before. The BRZ felt a lot like the F2000 car (obviously nowhere nearly as fast, or grippy, but the amount of feedback returned to the driver was similar).

What I do for a benchmark for performance, Is I take every car I drive onto a specific butterfly onramp in Toronto (427 S onto QEW E). My car can push it at 70-80km/h, but I know my car. I did it at 80km/h in a Mustang, but I think I could do 90km/hr. My sisters BMW did it at 90km/h, I drove a modern BMW on it at 100km/h, but I think I could do it at 110km/h. The BRZ did it at about 110km/h, but I think I could push it to 120km/h, after that I would need better tires. I think the BRZ handles a little better then a Corvette, but unlike the Corvette, it's so damn slow in a straight line.

Still, this car is well designed, I hear that it's got the lowest center of gravity out of any car <$200,000, it's lower then a Corvette, a GT-R, and Porsche too. The back seats fold flat, so I can fit a couple snowboards inside, but it's not split folding seats, so unlike a BMW 3 or a honda civic, I can only have 2 or 4 people in the car, not 3.

People who think RWD cars handle bad in the winter, just don't know how to drive RWD cars. Yes they can loose grip more easily, but if done right, you want that. For instance in the winter, you can literally do a U turn on the spot, just by holding the brakes, turning the wheel and tapping the gas. This is because 80% of your cars braking power goes to the front, and RWD cars put power to the back. When the street are narrower, and you have less space to do a 3 point turn, this is kinda awesome.

As for merging into traffic, in a RWD car, when you put power down, it drifts a bit (the back slides out a bit), so when there is a lot of traffic, and you need to do a left turn onto a busy street, you can do it with less space with a RWD car. Mind you, if you're not experienced with RWD cars, I wouldn't do this.

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As for your recommendations, problem is I want a manual transmission. I was looking into the upcoming BMW 3 series, but the problem is, it's only an auto. Plus the new BMW 3 series, like many new cars, has electrically assited steering. I don't want that, I'd rather pay the extra 1 MPG, and get hydraulic steering, it gives you a lot more feedback, and isn't that why people drive RWD sports cars? for the feel?

Also I don't mind small back seats, the BRZ fit me fine in the back, and I'm 5'9. Realistically I only use the back seats 2 or 3 times a year, I just want back seats over a pure 2 seater, in case I decide to have kids and need a baby seat.

As for the Q50 - Only Auto. I also drove a G37, and I don't like how heavy the car feels, it's not as a refined of a sports car as a BMW or BRZ.

This is my last chance to own a manual transmission car, it seems like, while still popular in Europe, most manufacterers are cutting out the option for North America. The Subaru BRZ might become my only option if this trend continues. I really hope Infinity and BMW change their mind so I at least have an alternative to the BRZ.

.....I think right now, my only alternate option is looking to be a Mazda MX-5, LOL.

Yes, and a Boxer, like a BMW 1, is still largely considered a girls car.

Like I said, I might get a more expensive, fancy fancy car later down the road, and then just use this as a daily drive for back and forth to work. I can get a Boxer then, or better yet a used 911. 911's are actually very reliable cars, and maintenance is cheap if you repair them yourself. An example is something called the "rear main seal" which seals together the drive shaft and transmission. It's a $25 part (I kid you not), but costs $1,500 to fix because you have to drop the engine to fix it.

I'm no mechanic, but I do some car repair (like changing control arms LOL), and a few close friends of mine have switched the engines in their cars for larger ones. I'm sure with their help, I could do it too.

as an owner of 3 different corvettes, rx-7, rx-8, genesis coupe 6cyl, scion fr-s, multiple Camaros(3rd gen), 71 el Camino, and soon to be the 7th gen Corvette. If you are looking for a bad ass real wheel car as an entry level I would have to ask what you consider an entry level? are you looking for straight up 0-60? 1/4 mile? horsepower bragging rights? or a mixture of all around specs?

Either way I will give my opinions. the Subaru and scion fr-s twins are crap cars and, anyone saying otherwise are fools to.

the boxter is also crap for the price and expensive to fix as are the BMW's

out of your options I would say your best bet is the over weight STI, while it has decent HP its an AWD so burnouts are more difficult to achieve than in typical RWD cars.

After saying that, I would suggest none of those cars. The Mazda rx-7 is a car you can pick up as a shell for under 5grand and build up custom paint job, rebuilt motor, new single turbo conversion kit with all new intercooler and accessories. Slap a nice set of rims and suspension and whatever type of audio system you are into and you have a blazing fast, sexy, and awesome drifter/RWD car. Plus the car would basically be 100% custom to your desires so there is always that, or you can always look for an rx-7 already done up.

However, that being said, the car you left out that I highly recommend is the C6 generation corvette. you can find the current gen (2006) Z06 model car for 35-40k, and that gets you one of the best cars on the road under 150k at 505hp and 0-60 times at 3.7seconds; however, with traction control on you will be able to tame that beast until you are good and ready to turn it off ;).
If that's to expensive you can step down to the standard vette or in a few years the Grand Sport edition which comes with the suspension, brakes, and wide body kit as the Z06. The ZHZ edition corvette comes with the 2lt package 436hp and 0-60 comes in under 4.5 seconds. I have seen them currently go for under 27grand.

whatever you choose do not get that Subaru scion twin they are garbage I sued Toyota and won over that shitty product. Do yourself a favor and get the corvette its the best bang for the buck. The best part about the vette or the rx-7 they are both 2 seats, perfect room for yourself and your "friend" you want to bring back to your place ;).
Either way buying whatever car you choose should be a fun experience, and I hope you end up with a good purchase that you wont regret at the first red light you roll up to and lose :(.

you want a real car? then you should get this one

I forgot to add my Z06 got on the highway dam close to 30MPG with over 505HP was very impressive and you can use it as a daily driver since they are cheap to work on(parts are readily available) and oil changes aren't to bad(price wise) professionally and very easy if you can do it yourself. Plus you can get a ton of options but the heads up display which shows speed, rpms, and the G-forces put against the car during turns is an awesome feature.

You're LOL'ing at me saying domestic reliability is on par with foreign brands, but the only real lol is that you're using antecdotal evidence to say what lasts longer.  I go by market research and publications like Consumer Reports or JD Power.  My folks gave me a Dodge Intrepid that lasted past 350k kms, but that doesn't really say anything about expected reliability for someone else.  Reliability also varies wildly by model, so an S-Class may be great but an E-Class terible, an Intrepid fine but a Neon a shit box and so on.

I would agree if you were saying past models had poor build quality.  The Montana you mentioned being an example.  But if you look at brands like Ford or Hyundai - which was once abysmal - new cars that you buy today are quite possibly every bit as good as a Toyota or Honda.  Or at least close.  Certain brands like Lexus, Lincoln, Buick and Porche stand out while models from Land Rover and some others are quite poor, but most of the mass-market is similar.

More on topic though, are you considering model changes?  Since you're a couple years away, the new Mustang will launch with IRS and new look, and the Challenger will also be new.  I plan to give them a good look over.  Personally, I love the 335 convertible so it's a front runner for me even though like you said, it's about to be replaced by the 435 next year, and I can't/won't afford it completely new right now.  I also like the Lexus IS350C.  I like the Genesis but don't like the image enough.  I'm also debating a used SL-class, but it would require going older than I would like and no back seat is an issue.

If you like small and light I think the BRZ seems like a great fit, or the new 2-series.  BRZ's are less pretentous, but they do seem to be cop magnets.

Hyundai Genesis Coupe RS

I have to agree with some people on here. It seems like you need to really define what you are looking for, because its seems like you're comparing cars across the spectrum. I currently own my second BMW now... hard to look back. They are really fun to drive and come with ZERO (including oil changes) maintenance for 50K or 4 years. After driving my families domestics, they just don't put the same grin on my face.

Also, how long do you plan to keep the car? Turbo cars will have more long term repair costs, but if you plan to sell in 3 years or lease one, that might be irrelevant.

I'm looking for a car while handles well, something that's fun to drive. For instance I hated Corvettes because while they are on a good platformance and fun to drive on the track, they felt like crap at city speeds. I've always liked BMW's, and the Scion seems like a poor mans BMW.

I don't need anything too fast, I'm happy with a 0-100km in the 5-6s range, but what I want to something fun, which corners well, and something reliable with a good looking interior. No hard plastics.

I also want something reliable, so no Corvettes, lol. I drove one with only 2,000km and already the seat was broken. Yes they are fast, but i feel driving them feels no different then an Impala. If I went chevy I would go Caddy CTS-V, it's nice inside, sounds great, easy to slide but it's still a peice of crap that's going to break down.

RX-7 is a nice car, I'll admit, but they are old, I want something a bit nicer. Also those rotary engines cost a lot to fix, I have a friend with an RX-7, with a turbo, and it pushes something like 300hp or something. Pretty fast, but he says it's a lot to maintain. If I went for an old car I would look at the Toyota Supra, it's also easy to mod, and looks a lot better, plus 4 seats.

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I think you and I have different tastes in cars. I don't need a car that goes 0-100km in 4s or less, or a 500hp Nissan. I live in a big city, when the heck am I going to use all that power? I don't drag race, lol, I think that's for people with....nvm

I drove the BRZ, and well all the cars you mentioned, but I loved the BRZ the most because it was the most nimble. It's funny what you and I love/hate are exact opposites. I just want a lightweight car, with a decent pick up, good looks, and something that's dependable. At 2,800lb (600 less then a Nissan 370Z, and I believe 200lb less then a Corvette), with 250hp in the STI model, with a 0-100km in 5.5s or so, and the Toyota badge, the BRZ fits all that.

My only complaint with the BRZ is interior quality, a BMW 335i just looks so much better inside, but it's a metal top covertible, which takes away from the feel of the drive.