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Forums - Gaming - Publishers overestimate their necessity.

Euphoria14 said:
JayWood2010 said:


It is a very opinionated piece with a biased way of looking at it.  No i dont mean biased as in Microsoft of SOny biased, but a very directed approach at things without looking at the whole picture just to prove a point.  Something I see on this site way too often.  Right now most people are viewing things in there own eyes and that is it.  They dont take into consideration what the developers/publishers go through, so ok sure use your two examples of Nintendo/Rockstar.  Let's just ignore every other developer out there that has to struggle and aren't lucky enough to hav GTA or Mario under there belts.  So games like The Witcher and Heavy Rain has to have just as many used copies sold as new copies yet there games are just as good as Mario and GTA by many people's opinions.

And yeah you can take The Last of Us back tm, which is the problem.  This does not happen in any other industry.  This would not be an issue if they were being sold months from the release date but the fact is brand new games are being sold used within the first week.

Now I would prefer not to comment on this subject anymore as I guarantee you that the majority of the people who reads this will not change there minds about things because they have already set there mind to believe in one thing. So if you want to talk to me about this then pm me.

What the developers go through? The devs are getting paid plenty of money and they are doing a job, just like any other. They don't deserve some special form of treatment. They create a product, then we buy it. That's where it ends. Just like when I buy a car or a book or a music CD or a DVD/BD movie. None of them get money from second hand sales, so what makes game devs (Or more accurately the publishers) so special? This also goes for your point about not happening in any other industry. That is simply not true. People read a book, then lend it to a friend or throw it up on eBay. People watch a DVD/BD, then the next day lend it to their friends or if they want, sell it. Some even just rent them. Some do neither and just take advantage of libraries for books, movies and games.

Just because The Witcher, Heavy Rain or Metro doesn't sell as well Mario or GTA while being just as good of quality does not automatically mean they deserve as much sales or as much money. They know this, which is why they work to a budget. They do a good job at it too. They know that every game doesn't sell as well as the other, so they start out with a small budget and see where things go and if all goes well they increase the budget next time. Why does The Witcher 2 cost 8.5M to make while similar games with much less graphical fidelity cost 2x as much if not more? It's called not allocating your resources properly and project takings too long to create. Why does Assassins Creed need 1,200 employees to create?

As for your TLoU point again, it circles back to what I said in the first paragraph of this post.

 

It is already proven that second hand sales are healthy for the industry. They help finance new game and someone who buys a game used on the cheap might become a fan and buy the next release. Anything that gets more of your product into consumers hands holds a better chance for the future of your product/franchise than a short term solution of "let's see how much we can possibly get on the initial new game sales and screw anyone who relies on cheaper alternatives" or a position of "What, can't afford the game new? Too bad and screw you. You can't play my game". I can assure you that no second market and no lending will not cause many franchises to grow.

There is a whole lot more proof out there that it helps than you could ever find to show that it hurts the industry.

So there is another industry that has brand new items being sold used within a week? lol No. Which answers your first and 2nd paragraph of text.

And no again lol  You can still resell your games.  Trhat money goes back into games.  You just dont buy brand new games as used anymore.  I already pointed this out the first time i said anything and I asked you also to not reply as you already have your mind made up.




       

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JayWood2010 said:

So there is another industry that has brand new items being sold used within a week? lol No. Which answers your first and 2nd paragraph of text.

And no again lol  You can still resell your games.  Trhat money goes back into games.  You just dont buy brand new games as used anymore.  I already pointed this out the first time i said anything and I asked you also to not reply as you already have your mind made up.

If you didn't want a reply then don't quote me in a thread. 

Want to have PM conversations? Send a PM.

 

As for the rest, as I stated, there is nothing to prove that the 2nd hand market hurts gaming. However, there is plenty of studies to show it helps to provide a healthy ecosystem. Oh yeah and those XBone games can only be sold to approved retailers, meaning I can't go to eBay to get a maximum return. I must agree to whatever stores like Gamestop want to give me.

I prefer choice.

 

You are right though, neither of us are going to change our minds. You believe devs and publishers deserve special treatment that nobody else gets while I say they play by the same set of rules everyone else does.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

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Miguel_Zorro said:

The same people saying they should just lower budgets for game production will be the people lining up for GTAV.


Agreed. Personally, i don't want us consumers to have to compromise. But rather than price, I rather not have developers compromise on imrpoving quality. If all you people arw not just talking out of your @$$, then I think that publishers should really start segregating the market. I don't want my AAA experiences to take a hit. I love playing games such as Uncharted, Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, and their increasing production quality. If you guys are really okay with your lower budget games, then I hope they make a market for you also. I dont want our differing opinions to have to ruin the industry....however, i doubt you guys really know what you are asking  for.





20happyballs said:
Miguel_Zorro said:

The same people saying they should just lower budgets for game production will be the people lining up for GTAV.


Agreed. Personally, i don't want us consumers to have to compromise. But rather than price, I rather not have developers compromise on imrpoving quality. If all you people arw not just talking out of your @$$, then I think that publishers should really start segregating the market. I don't want my AAA experiences to take a hit. I love playing games such as Uncharted, Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, and their increasing production quality. If you guys are really okay with your lower budget games, then I hope they make a market for you also. I dont want our differing opinions to have to ruin the industry....however, i doubt you guys really know what you are asking  for.


You are missing the point of the article.

You have plenty of games with the same or higher production values that don't cost $40,$50 or even $60M+ to create. Many of them, like Uncharted are made with budgets ~$20M. The Witcher 1 & 2 created with budgets under $10M. Lower cost =/= lesser quality title.

High production values can be achieved if devs and publishers put in the effort to find ways to lower cost rather than just allowing it to escalate and expecting the consumers to cover the rising cost.

 

Fact is that much of these issues are not due to second hand sales or people lending out their games more so than these companies mismanaging.

 

Don't be shocked if we find out TLoU cost less than $30M.



iPhone = Great gaming device. Don't agree? Who cares, because you're wrong.

Currently playing:

Final Fantasy VI (iOS), Final Fantasy: Record Keeper (iOS) & Dragon Quest V (iOS)     

    

Got a retro room? Post it here!

I can see why one of the members of that site called Cliff an intellectual marshmallow LOL. I was going to say this earlier when this thread was created but I procrastinated.



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Euphoria14 said:
20happyballs said:
Miguel_Zorro said:

The same people saying they should just lower budgets for game production will be the people lining up for GTAV.


Agreed. Personally, i don't want us consumers to have to compromise. But rather than price, I rather not have developers compromise on imrpoving quality. If all you people arw not just talking out of your @$$, then I think that publishers should really start segregating the market. I don't want my AAA experiences to take a hit. I love playing games such as Uncharted, Last of Us, Bioshock Infinite, and their increasing production quality. If you guys are really okay with your lower budget games, then I hope they make a market for you also. I dont want our differing opinions to have to ruin the industry....however, i doubt you guys really know what you are asking  for.


You are missing the point of the article.

You have plenty of games with the same or higher production values that don't cost $40,$50 or even $60M+ to create. Many of them, like Uncharted are made with budgets ~$20M. The Witcher 1 & 2 created with budgets under $10M. Lower cost =/= lesser quality title.

High production values can be achieved if devs and publishers put in the effort to find ways to lower cost rather than just allowing it to escalate and expecting the consumers to cover the rising cost.

 

Fact is that much of these issues are not due to second hand sales or people lending out their games more so than these companies mismanaging.

 

Don't be shocked if we find out TLoU cost less than $30M.

While I cant say i know myself, it is important to look at what is causing development costs to rise, and why those games were produced more cheaply because those developers are obviously the exception. Some of my guesses as to the reason for their powered development costs is that they pay their game designers much less. This is not something developers can really do anything about for the most part because you cant expect people of high credentials to just agree to a lowered salary. If they did try to lower their salaries, those workers would just leave. Im pretty sure that the CDprojekt developers will also start having higher budgets because the people in that studio are now becoming well known enough to find a job elsewhere.

Bungie has something around 400 developers. With an average salary of around 50000, thats already 20,000,000 for 1 year. Most good games take at least 2.

Im sure that there are many many other factors that we dont know about.





Kresnik said:

LemonSlice said:

The problem is that the discounted and used AAA titles are plugging that middle. The very fact that a game enters retail at a lower price point devalues it in the eyes of many customers, and even if they don't have 60$ to spend, they see a similarly cheap only slightly older and discounted/used AAA title as a better value. Sad, very sad, but true.


Indeed a very good point.  Perhaps used games are the problem after all? :P

But it never seemed to be a problem in the past - games of all prices managed to sell alright.  

Hell, the Simple 2000 series was a dedicated series of low-budget Japanese stuff that still saw physical releases and was (mostly) localised in Europe - I'm guessing mostly selling minimal copies but clearly enough to keep Midas Interactive afloat.  I suppose they're definitely the lower end of "the middle" but there was a place for these games in the sixth gen that just doesn't exist anymore.

I guess it comes down to the lowered sense of game pricing coming from things like the App Store which has partly contributed to this.  And development costs shooting up with HD development couldn't have helped too (although again, Compile Heart help to prove a point there about how that doesn't necessarily mean that sales-needed-to-break-even should shoot skyward).

I just wonder if this isn't mostly because of the cost of AAA games shooting up.  In the sixth gen, the gap didn't seem so big.  I always felt in the sixth gen that even though you could have two different series which probably had vastly different budgets (say, Halo 2 vs. Timesplitters 2) they could still both be sold at full price and people would buy them (obviously Halo sold far more, but Timesplitters sold "enough").  It doesn't feel like a similar comparison could be made these days, really.  Everything shoots to be the next CoD or Halo, there's no ground for something lesser.  Unless it's an indie release like Nexuiz or something, I suppose.

So effectively, by throwing so much money at AAA releases they've effectively destroyed the middle because you either go big or go home.  Which I just find a massive shame.  Sure, I love AAA titles and equally there's loads of lesser stuff that isn't great.  But there were plenty of gems of middle-sized franchises too that just can't sustain themselves anymore, and it just sucks because many of those were games I loved.  Ah well.


I don't mind paying full price for a mid-tier game if it's what I want. I understand even if a game is cheap to make, if it has a small niche audience, they still need that audience to pay good money for that title. I rather support games like that at full price than the next COD (not bashing, I love COD actually, since the original WW2 COD, heck since Medal of Honor on PS1)

Japan has a great system. Their simplistic graphic styles don't require big budgets. Games are made intelligently, they use very few very simple assets to make very long games, even with huge selling titles like Dragon Quest. I heard many Western developers bashing Japanese but I think they could learn alot from them. The Japanese know how to turn a profit even when targeting an extreme niche from very few copies sold. That goes for all of their forms of art, which is why they produce so much amazing and unique stuff.



JayWood2010 said:

Horrible article. The same people saying this guy is right are the same people buying Grand Threft Auto, The Last of Us, Uncharted, Halo, Beyond, etc These games are expensive. Lot of workers, costly engines, actors, voice actors, etc Show a little respect instead of whining all the time. Apparently because you can name two games that gets away with a AAA budget does not make you right. Throw in nintendo because they can get away with it too, but other developers focus on AAA because AA and class C games dont sell well.  Stop acting like developers/publishers owe you something.  

Indeed we are, because those are exceptional examples of extremely high quality AAA games.

We are not, on the other hand, buying those absurdly expensive games which don't turn out to be worth anywhere near as much as was spent on them.



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