sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: ultima said: the2real4mafol said: What a bastard, if he didn't want a kid yet then don't have sex! Don't trick your girl into having an abortion, especially if she don't want that. The women gives birth, so it's exclusively their choice if they want an abortion or not I agree with you that it's the woman's choice to have the child or not. But what of the father? Should he get the choice of "financial abortion"? What is "financial abortion"? I have never heard of it Meaning that a father can decide early on that he doesn't have to pay child support.

I though they had a choice on this even if the baby was born ,even though it shows how bad they are as a person

Branko2166 said: wfz said: There are two angles to look at this argument: Example 1: 1) Fetus is NOT a human 2) Gender Equality Shouldn't men have the "equality" to choose whether or not they wish to have and support a baby? Women should have the choice to say what to do with their body, and men shouldn't be allowed to force them into anything. However, the man should have the right to pull out of the relationship entirely and the woman to understand that this eventual baby is hers to take care of. There is no gender equality when women have the only say in parenthood. Example 2: 1) Fetus is a human This is murder and he should be locked up. Sorry, but sexual intercourse is what makes human life. If you are having sex, you need to realize that there is always a possibility of creating a human (even if you pull out. Even if you wear a condom. Even if she is on the pill). When you decide to have sex, you are making a conscious decision and you have to bear the responsibility of your actions. Grow the fuck up. On a side note, I will just throw it out there that I believe all men should be castrated as babies and that the "ability to create human life" should be given back at an adult age when the man is proven to be healthy and can provide for a baby. There's simply no way to control people's behaviors and there will always be accidents and tragedies with pregnancies. That's why instead of trying to change people, we have to restrict the idiocy of their action's results. Your post was for the most part interesting and reasonable until I got up to that last paragraph. If that is truly your stance then I am shocked beyond words. Part of what makes us men is the transformation we undergo during puberty. If you take that away we might as well just be portable sperm banks and or drones. That line of thinking I would expect more from femenist extremists to be honest.

Hahaha, that was just my frustration talking over the subject. The only hope I see for the universe is the fact that there's no way we're the most advanced race of beings out there. :P

I disagree with abortion, but I think it's hypocritical to let women make that decision and leave the man out.

If women can make the decision but men can't (for instance a man may want a baby but the woman does not), that is bullshit.

Women have too many rights over men in this society imho.

the2real4mafol said: sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: ultima said: the2real4mafol said: What a bastard, if he didn't want a kid yet then don't have sex! Don't trick your girl into having an abortion, especially if she don't want that. The women gives birth, so it's exclusively their choice if they want an abortion or not I agree with you that it's the woman's choice to have the child or not. But what of the father? Should he get the choice of "financial abortion"? What is "financial abortion"? I have never heard of it Meaning that a father can decide early on that he doesn't have to pay child support.  I though they had a choice on this even if the baby was born ,even though it shows how bad they are as a person

If the father decides he doesn't want anything to do with the child, the mother can bring the state in and force him to pay child support. Even if he doesn't have a job and cannot pay, he will go to prison. At least that's how it works here in Pennsylvania. 

DamnTastic said: Jay520 said: The man should have to take responsibility for the baby since he made the conscious decision to have unprotected sex when he knew the risks. What if the woman takes the pill and suddenly stops taking them without telling the man?

That's a risk that the man willingly took and he knew the consequences of that. He decided to trust his girlfriend without evidence and it was his own fault that he was deceived. For that, he should reap the consequences. When two people consciously decide to risk having a baby, then they need to both need to take responsibility if there is a baby.

Also, women don't have more power over men. A men has the power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. Similarly, women only have power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. So I'm not seeing how a woman has extra power to have a baby. Both men and women need to find a consenting, fertile mate.

Jay520 said: DamnTastic said: Jay520 said: The man should have to take responsibility for the baby since he made the conscious decision to have unprotected sex when he knew the risks. What if the woman takes the pill and suddenly stops taking them without telling the man? That's a risk that the man willingly took and he knew the consequences of that. He decided to trust his girlfriend without evidence and it was his own fault that he was deceived. For that, he should reap the consequences. When two people consciously decide to risk having a baby, then they need to both need to take responsibility if there is a baby.

Can't we apply that same logic to deny the legal practice of abortion for women who only have an abortion because they're not "ready" to have a baby? 

wfz said: Branko2166 said: wfz said: There are two angles to look at this argument: Example 1: 1) Fetus is NOT a human 2) Gender Equality Shouldn't men have the "equality" to choose whether or not they wish to have and support a baby? Women should have the choice to say what to do with their body, and men shouldn't be allowed to force them into anything. However, the man should have the right to pull out of the relationship entirely and the woman to understand that this eventual baby is hers to take care of. There is no gender equality when women have the only say in parenthood. Example 2: 1) Fetus is a human This is murder and he should be locked up. Sorry, but sexual intercourse is what makes human life. If you are having sex, you need to realize that there is always a possibility of creating a human (even if you pull out. Even if you wear a condom. Even if she is on the pill). When you decide to have sex, you are making a conscious decision and you have to bear the responsibility of your actions. Grow the fuck up. On a side note, I will just throw it out there that I believe all men should be castrated as babies and that the "ability to create human life" should be given back at an adult age when the man is proven to be healthy and can provide for a baby. There's simply no way to control people's behaviors and there will always be accidents and tragedies with pregnancies. That's why instead of trying to change people, we have to restrict the idiocy of their action's results. Your post was for the most part interesting and reasonable until I got up to that last paragraph. If that is truly your stance then I am shocked beyond words. Part of what makes us men is the transformation we undergo during puberty. If you take that away we might as well just be portable sperm banks and or drones. That line of thinking I would expect more from femenist extremists to be honest. Hahaha, that was just my frustration talking over the subject. The only hope I see for the universe is the fact that there's no way we're the most advanced race of beings out there. :P

Well that's a relief :)

Sometimes I think it would be nice if there were other humans out in the galaxy that are far more advanced and who could guide us and prevent us from destroying ourselves as we seem to be headed down that path. Sadly we never seem to learn from our history and are doomed to repeat it but on a far more devestating scale when factoring in improvements in weaponry.

sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: ultima said: the2real4mafol said: What a bastard, if he didn't want a kid yet then don't have sex! Don't trick your girl into having an abortion, especially if she don't want that. The women gives birth, so it's exclusively their choice if they want an abortion or not I agree with you that it's the woman's choice to have the child or not. But what of the father? Should he get the choice of "financial abortion"? What is "financial abortion"? I have never heard of it Meaning that a father can decide early on that he doesn't have to pay child support.  I though they had a choice on this even if the baby was born ,even though it shows how bad they are as a person If the father decides he doesn't want anything to do with the child, the mother can bring the state in and force him to pay child support. Even if he doesn't have a job and cannot pay, he will go to prison. At least that's how it works here in Pennsylvania.

It don't work like that in the UK and i know because my so called dad don't finanicially support me and he hasn't done so for about 10 years now (he split with my mum). 

the2real4mafol said: sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: ultima said: the2real4mafol said: What a bastard, if he didn't want a kid yet then don't have sex! Don't trick your girl into having an abortion, especially if she don't want that. The women gives birth, so it's exclusively their choice if they want an abortion or not I agree with you that it's the woman's choice to have the child or not. But what of the father? Should he get the choice of "financial abortion"? What is "financial abortion"? I have never heard of it Meaning that a father can decide early on that he doesn't have to pay child support.  I though they had a choice on this even if the baby was born ,even though it shows how bad they are as a person If the father decides he doesn't want anything to do with the child, the mother can bring the state in and force him to pay child support. Even if he doesn't have a job and cannot pay, he will go to prison. At least that's how it works here in Pennsylvania.  It don't work like that in the UK and i know because my so called dad don't finanicially support me and he hasn't done so for about 10 years now (he split with my mum).

Well here it is the custodial parent's responsibility to bring the state in to the picture, possibly that is the case in the UK as well? For example, my mother didn't go through the state to get child support for myself because my father supported me on his own free will. But if my father said, no, I won't give child support my mother could have taken him to court and got money. This is what she'd done with my half-brother's father, and he's been in jail many times because he was unable to pay it, which essentially screwed my mother because he couldn't get a job in prison. Most people prefer not to get the state involved for that reason, because if you don't pay (regardless of whether you can or not) they put you in prison, and it makes it harder for you to get money from them. 

edit: Another difference in getting the state involved is that you must pay the accumulated child support, even if the kid has grown up. 

the2real4mafol said: sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: sc94597 said: the2real4mafol said: ultima said: the2real4mafol said: What a bastard, if he didn't want a kid yet then don't have sex! Don't trick your girl into having an abortion, especially if she don't want that. The women gives birth, so it's exclusively their choice if they want an abortion or not I agree with you that it's the woman's choice to have the child or not. But what of the father? Should he get the choice of "financial abortion"? What is "financial abortion"? I have never heard of it Meaning that a father can decide early on that he doesn't have to pay child support.  I though they had a choice on this even if the baby was born ,even though it shows how bad they are as a person If the father decides he doesn't want anything to do with the child, the mother can bring the state in and force him to pay child support. Even if he doesn't have a job and cannot pay, he will go to prison. At least that's how it works here in Pennsylvania.  It don't work like that in the UK and i know because my so called dad don't finanicially support me and he hasn't done so for about 10 years now (he split with my mum).

I just think your mom didn't bother because going through the legal system is stupid as shit and a huge bothersome. My ex didn't either, she just ran off and my mom didn't either because it wouldn't be worth it because in the courts eyes my dad doesn't make anything