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Forums - Politics Discussion - Man Tricks Girlfriend Into Getting Abortion

ultima on 18 May 2013
Jay520 said:
DamnTastic said:
Jay520 said:
The man should have to take responsibility for the baby since he made the conscious decision to have unprotected sex when he knew the risks.


What if the woman takes the pill and suddenly stops taking them without telling the man?


That's a risk that the man willingly took and he knew the consequences of that. He decided to trust his girlfriend without evidence and it was his own fault that he was deceived. For that, he should reap the consequences. When two people consciously decide to risk having a baby, then they need to both need to take responsibility if there is a baby.

Also, women don't have more power over men. A men has the power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. Similarly, women only have power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. So I'm not seeing how a woman has extra power to have a baby. Both men and women need to find a consenting, fertile mate.

That's BS man. By the same argument, if a bank decides to confiscate a customer's money, it's the customer's fault for naively trusting the bank with the money.



           

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ultima on 18 May 2013
betacon said:
Jay520 said:
DamnTastic said:
Jay520 said:
The man should have to take responsibility for the baby since he made the conscious decision to have unprotected sex when he knew the risks.


What if the woman takes the pill and suddenly stops taking them without telling the man?


That's a risk that the man willingly took and he knew the consequences of that. He decided to trust his girlfriend without evidence and it was his own fault that he was deceived. For that, he should reap the consequences. When two people consciously decide to risk having a baby, then they need to both need to take responsibility if there is a baby.

Also, women don't have more power over men. A men has the power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. Similarly, women only have power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. So I'm not seeing how a woman has extra power to have a baby. Both men and women need to find a consenting, fertile mate.

Wait what, so in this story you’re suggesting it's the women fault because she took the tablets without  knowing what they were :s same scenario that your suggesting. There is no risk if she continued to take the pills which she agreed to *this scenario* that is a fault of her and not the man. It’s deception and entrapment and against his will. You also seem to suggest a guy can have a bay with anyone he wants, yes because a lover child is very much the same with a street fling. (Bold)Also quite clearly not, well not from what you say is fine, by you a women can also con a man into having a baby.


^THIS^



           

ultima on 18 May 2013
Jay520 said:
@sc

You seem to be referring to the morality of abortion, which is not what I was talking about. I'm talking about who should take responsibility and who has power

Both the man and woman should take a responsibility, because:
(a) The man chose to make decisions that results in a baby - sex; and
(b) The woman chose to make decisions that results in a baby - sex and refusing to abort.
Because both parties made decisions that resulted in a baby, both should take responsibility for a baby.

Both a man and woman have the power to decide on having a baby because a baby requires:
(a) A man who agrees to sex, which can result in a baby; and
(b) A woman who agrees to sex and does not abort, which results in a baby.

From this, we can conclude that no one can force someone to be a parent, because in order to be a parent, that person needs to make decisions which risk the birth of a baby.

If the man really did make the decision to have a baby, then fine, he should have responsibility. But it's not fair to claim that the man made that decision when he only chose to have sex. In modern society, people have sex mainly for recreational purposes, not procreational ones.

So when the state knocks on the door and asks for child support, it really is forced parenthood.



           

Mr Khan on 18 May 2013

Legal paternal surrender is indeed one of the stickiest issues around, and one where there is no real solution.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Jay520 on 18 May 2013
ultima said:
Jay520 said:
DamnTastic said:
Jay520 said:
The man should have to take responsibility for the baby since he made the conscious decision to have unprotected sex when he knew the risks.


What if the woman takes the pill and suddenly stops taking them without telling the man?


That's a risk that the man willingly took and he knew the consequences of that. He decided to trust his girlfriend without evidence and it was his own fault that he was deceived. For that, he should reap the consequences. When two people consciously decide to risk having a baby, then they need to both need to take responsibility if there is a baby.

Also, women don't have more power over men. A men has the power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. Similarly, women only have power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. So I'm not seeing how a woman has extra power to have a baby. Both men and women need to find a consenting, fertile mate.

That's BS man. By the same argument, if a bank decides to confiscate a customer's money, it's the customer's fault for naively trusting the bank with the money.



That's different. Banks and customers form a legal agreement with certain parameters. If either party breakdown these parameters, then legal action must be taken. Same for a man and woman; if they had a legal, contractual agreement beforehand that the man wouldn't have to financially support the child, then he shouldn't have to. Unfortunately for most men, that's not the case.

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Jay520 on 18 May 2013
ultima said:
Jay520 said:
@sc

You seem to be referring to the morality of abortion, which is not what I was talking about. I'm talking about who should take responsibility and who has power

Both the man and woman should take a responsibility, because:
(a) The man chose to make decisions that results in a baby - sex; and
(b) The woman chose to make decisions that results in a baby - sex and refusing to abort.
Because both parties made decisions that resulted in a baby, both should take responsibility for a baby.

Both a man and woman have the power to decide on having a baby because a baby requires:
(a) A man who agrees to sex, which can result in a baby; and
(b) A woman who agrees to sex and does not abort, which results in a baby.

From this, we can conclude that no one can force someone to be a parent, because in order to be a parent, that person needs to make decisions which risk the birth of a baby.

If the man really did make the decision to have a baby, then fine, he should have responsibility. But it's not fair to claim that the man made that decision when he only chose to have sex. In modern society, people have sex mainly for recreational purposes, not procreational ones.

So when the state knocks on the door and asks for child support, it really is forced parenthood.



No, he probably didn't decide to have a baby. BUT he did make the decision to take part in an activity which had a high risk of him being a parent. He took a risk, so he should be prepared to accept the consequences of this risk.

Just because society is fucked up and people treat sex like a game doesn't mean it isn't serious and people shouldn't have to pay the consequences. That's a weak argument.

Jay520 on 18 May 2013
ultima said:
betacon said:
Jay520 said:
DamnTastic said:
Jay520 said:
The man should have to take responsibility for the baby since he made the conscious decision to have unprotected sex when he knew the risks.


What if the woman takes the pill and suddenly stops taking them without telling the man?


That's a risk that the man willingly took and he knew the consequences of that. He decided to trust his girlfriend without evidence and it was his own fault that he was deceived. For that, he should reap the consequences. When two people consciously decide to risk having a baby, then they need to both need to take responsibility if there is a baby.

Also, women don't have more power over men. A men has the power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. Similarly, women only have power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. So I'm not seeing how a woman has extra power to have a baby. Both men and women need to find a consenting, fertile mate.

Wait what, so in this story you’re suggesting it's the women fault because she took the tablets without  knowing what they were :s same scenario that your suggesting. There is no risk if she continued to take the pills which she agreed to *this scenario* that is a fault of her and not the man. It’s deception and entrapment and against his will. You also seem to suggest a guy can have a bay with anyone he wants, yes because a lover child is very much the same with a street fling. (Bold)Also quite clearly not, well not from what you say is fine, by you a women can also con a man into having a baby.


^THIS^



I honestly couldn't understand what he was saying. Perhaps you can clarify?

thismeintiel on 18 May 2013
Mr Puggsly said:
Branko2166 said:
Mr Puggsly said:
Branko2166 said:
Also if this guy is gonna get charged for murder for what he did then logically speaking a 6 week old fetus is being treated legally as a human being with full rights. Why then is it that those rights are not afforded to a fetus if the man wants to keep the child and the woman aborts?

LIberals are opposed to that logical thinking in fear it helps the pro-life movement.

Thank you for the answer, I guess my question was to an extent rhetorical. It's just fascinating to observe people and or groups discard logic in an attempt to advance their agenda.

It seems like they were having an intellignet discussion at first... but then it falls apart and they start pushing their agenda. Dancing around what to call murder in fear of hurting the pro-choice movement.

Its digusting really.

Unfortunately, I think that's the reason many news channels decided against following the Gosnell trial.  Sad, really.



 

betacon on 18 May 2013
Jay520 said:
ultima said:
betacon said:
Jay520 said:
DamnTastic said:
Jay520 said:
The man should have to take responsibility for the baby since he made the conscious decision to have unprotected sex when he knew the risks.


What if the woman takes the pill and suddenly stops taking them without telling the man?


That's a risk that the man willingly took and he knew the consequences of that. He decided to trust his girlfriend without evidence and it was his own fault that he was deceived. For that, he should reap the consequences. When two people consciously decide to risk having a baby, then they need to both need to take responsibility if there is a baby.

Also, women don't have more power over men. A men has the power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. Similarly, women only have power to have a baby with someone else who also wants a baby. So I'm not seeing how a woman has extra power to have a baby. Both men and women need to find a consenting, fertile mate.

Wait what? so in this story you’re suggesting it's the women fault because she took the tablets without  knowing what they were :s . There is no risk if she continued to take the pills which she agreed to * that is a fault of her and not the man. It’s deception and entrapment and against his will. You also seem to suggest a guy can have a bay with anyone he wants, yes because a lover's child is very much the same as having a baby with a street fling. (Bolded)Also quite clearly not, well not from what you say is fine, by you a women can also con a man into having a baby.


^THIS^


I honestly couldn't understand what he was saying. Perhaps you can clarify?

You’re a hypocrite, you claim a women can only have a baby with a consenting male but quite clearly if you lied about taking a tablet and a child is a result of that, then the male should not have to take that reasonability. Look at your bolded and compare it to what you orginally said in the first paragraph. I also made the comparison to the female in the story taking the abortion tablets without knowing what they were, by your stance is up to the individual to know the situation at hand and take responabilty for any outcome. Both lied to thus taking that control out of their hands.  



curl-6 on 18 May 2013
Jay520 said:
No, he probably didn't decide to have a baby. BUT he did make the decision to take part in an activity which had a high risk of him being a parent. He took a risk, so he should be prepared to accept the consequences of this risk.

Just because society is fucked up and people treat sex like a game doesn't mean it isn't serious and people shouldn't have to pay the consequences. That's a weak argument.

This isn't the stone age, sex and procreation are no longer one and the same. There's nothing "fucked up" about having sex for fun.