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Forums - General - Could you and Jesus be friends?

 

Could you and Jesus be friends?

Yes: he has some teachings I can relate to. 23 65.71%
 
No: I don't like his tea... 9 25.71%
 
What have others said? 3 8.57%
 
Total:35
dsgrue3 said:
BasilZero said:

The Gospels of John and Mathew are connected hence why they are called "The Gospels". So it isnt a surprise if one gospel draws forth a quote or a similar setting since each gospel is based upon the experiences or the first person view of those who represent each Gospel - (i.e. John in the Gospel of John , Mathew in Gospel of Mathew, etc).

I see nothing wrong with comparing it - its like playing Pokemon with multiple versions, you end up going the same path but see and witness different events (certain legendaries, different enemy teams depending on which ver you play such as Ruby/Sapphire) but in the end they all lead to the same result or conclusion and usually have the same meaning storyline wise.

@second half of your post - Words do have meaning for an example the "Sword" means truth, like the famous saying "Truth hurts". People dont like to hear things they dont want to or things that go against what they believe themselves. He is talking about how the truth (his sword) will cut asunder relations between people even families as everyone in a family will have their own differences and different beliefs, whether it is political, personal, or religious. He knows this will bring division to families and groups thus why he says he brings truth (the sword) and not peace.

If you're okay using John then look at Revelation 2:22-23. (outlawauron made it clear this was not acceptable to him/her.)

Again, words have no ambiguous meaning by themselves. The sentence can change the meaning.

What is unclear to you about "I have not come here for Peace?"

I don't understand why you tie John and Revelation as one relates directly to the life and teachings to Jesus and the other to John's visions of the end days.



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That depends. He would have a lot of things to explain to me first.



As mentioned in th ot.. I would be more than cool to be friends with Jesus. Hell I would even become a Christian if it ment getting the truth from him directly... It's all the government interference over the two millennia that disgusts me.



outlawauron said:

I don't understand why you tie John and Revelation as one relates directly to the life and teachings to Jesus and the other to John's visions of the end days.

Because it is the same author and, well, because YOU did. You're quite forgetful.



I respect Jesus's teachings but I don't respect mainstream religion.



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Everyone should read the Jefferson bible. It's short, it's the story of Jesus and his morals, there is no magic. And it's compiled by the third American president. An excellent Christmas reading book. It's how I know I would like Jesus.



BasilZero said:

Personal assumptions.

If you're going to say that "I did not come here for peace" does not mean exactly that...wow.

"I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."

Yep, I'm sure all the times death is mentioned it means something else because you say so - despite the alleged perfection of Jesus' words.

There's really nothing more to say, you aren't being rational.



Augen said:
DaRev said:
Augen said:
That is hard to say. I mean I get along with most people as have agreeable disposition, but not sure what Jesus (assuming he existed) would be like given all accounts came from secondary sources after his death. If he was a man of bronze age Palestine then we'd likely have very different zeitgeist on basis of cultural shifts and centuries of social upheaval. A very tolerant person even a hundred years ago could seem old fashioned or even hateful to us now.

So, I'd have to let a person speak and have a thoughtful discussion before making a judgment as asked in this thread. My answer is, I do not know and not really sure how anyone could claim to know such a thing.

Understandable, but I think you might be complicating things a bit. For example, if I said to you that we should kill all black people or kill all white people, could you be friends with me, would you need to have a discussion face to face with me to make up your mind of whether to befriend me or not? Jesus said love your enemies, do you agree with that, and based on such other teachings, could you be friends with Jesus?

I think it is a complicated question.  You are asking if I would be friends with someone I have never met, who if they lived did so 2000 years ago and all accounts of their words are second hand.

You are a product of the 20th and 21st century so I have different expectations of someone from that period.  Still, if a secondary source told me "DeRev said we should commit genocide" I would have the decency of letting you explain yourself. Afterall, it could be slander or it could have been taken out of context. Perhaps it was parody or you were trying to illustrate a greater point and had a provocative line to get audience attention.  In any event, I'd let you defend yourself or investigate the matter before coming to a conclusion on your character.

So, again, we do not know what Jesus said.  What we know is people years later wrote about what he said.  What was their motivation for doing so? Why do any accounts differ? What does it tell us about the region, culture or era in history?  I ask these things because Jesus can "say" a whole myriad of things to support the speaker's view.

Now, we move to the idea, which can be separated from the man.  If you think this hard to believe I will submit a more recent historical figure: Thomas Jefferson.  Jefferson is held up as a scholar and great thinker of his time, his writings are well known and respected and the man wrote "All men are created equal" which is a noble sentiment.  However, because we know much more about Jefferson and his lifestyle we know he owned slaves.  This makes things complicated because we respect his work and detest his lifestyle.  So, we have to understand the period of time he existed in.  It does not excuse the practice, but shed light on how cognitive dissonance in such a matter that "all men" meant "all land owning white guys" and how ideas grow and change based on our own experiences and views.

Turning to the notion "love your enemies" I would have to understand better what the notion of love and enemy meant.  I would counter we should strive to better understand one another, because in the vacuum ignorance thrives and breeds hatred.  Thus, we would move towards the removal of labels such as enemies in discourse.  We may not agree or love one another, but I think becoming a more tolerant society is a reasonable expectation to put upon us as a species.

So, I close saying as I did before that my natural instinct is to be friends with anyone I meet, but I cannot speak to someone shrouded by antiquity and interpretations by others.

In response to your paragraphs:

1)     1- I still think you’re the one complicating things. Maybe I should’tn have used the word “friend”, or maybe I should have asked could you agree with Jesus’ teachings?

2)     2 - Idon’t think there would be any need for explanation. For example, you have never met Hitler, would need him to explain his ideals in order for you to say whether or not you could be friends with him? It’s not very complicated, Jesus = Yes, Hitler = No.

3)      3 - You’re complicating things.

4)      4. Owning slaves in and of itself is not a bad thing. In fact, I believe Jesus teaches that if you’re a slave, then be the best slave you can be. Same as being an employee, be the best employee you can be – don’t cheat your master or your employer. The fact that someone did something bad or even owned slaves doesn’t make them a person that you shouldn’t be a friend. Anyways, with regard to Jesus, my point is that he was all good, not owning slaves or anything like that, so why not say you could be friends with him – unless you can find some dirt on him.

5)      5. You’re complicating things here again. “Love your enemies” means just what it says in everyday language. I agree that it would be extremely difficult to do, but I think there is no ambiguity in what Jesus is asking us to do, whether it’s Nintendo supporters embracing Sony fanboys or Israelis and Palestinians hugging it out, love your enemies means just what it says. Yes it would be hard to do, but is it an ideal that you can agree with.

6)      6. OK, but don’t go around telling anyone that you would first have to talk to Hitler, or any other murderous idealist, before you can decide whether or not you could be friends with him.



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BasilZero said:

1) He didnt come here for peace - he was born, sacrificed so we can be forgiven for our sins - that is the whole purpose of Christ's Death and Resurrection. "He came to promote the truth and die for our sins" is what the whole teaching of Jesus is preached around the world.

Birth = Spread Truth (Obviously will cause tensions between people, he was taken by those who he offered to give his truth and placed on the cross - peace cannot come from truth because not everyone will accept it as truth)
Death and Resurrection = To save us from our sins (which he knew he had to do since he wanted to do it as a second chance to humanity)

2) Hi, you gave me a verse from revelations (a book that should NEVER be taken in a literal sense), I gave you the meaning of it - you did not mention any other verse especially the old testament verses where they promote stoning or killing. I answered you correctly, not my fault the "truth hurts" to you l0l.

3) Lmao. Truth hurts as I said previously but calling someone irrational because they gave you a response that you dont agree with is irrational itself . Who are you playing with seriously? You didnt come here to find truth or the meaning of verses, you just came here to prove people wrong no matter what their response is whether it be negative or positive - you just came here to derail and put down people who have a different belief other than you.

Also...."Personal Assumptions"? Honestly? I thought you wanted every day people's opinions and responses about their own views and that you enjoyed them?

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=5292245

You sure dont seem to be enjoying my views and I dont even like going to Church (i.e. not a fan of organized religion and their practices due to politics/money involved) l0l

Edit: If you dont like the opinions of everyday people / average people - feel free to go to a religious forum/site and debate with those people otherwise you are going to get similar if not the same responses.

1) This thread is about HIS teachings. Thus, the ultimate purpose - i.e. sacrificing himself to absolve us of our sins is not relevant.

2) Well you tell me which book can actually be taken literally, if any, and I'll attempt to find quotations from that one. To me, you seem to be cherry-picking what is and is not literal as it suits your argument.

3) You have told me that this is not literal - "I did not come here for peace." How else can you even take this sentence? If someone tells me the earth is flat, that isn't irrational because I disagree - it's irrational because it's bullshit. The same is the case here.

I appreciate rational views. You haven't even begun to bring forth a rational point, let alone an entire argument.



DaRev said:
Augen said:

I think it is a complicated question.  You are asking if I would be friends with someone I have never met, who if they lived did so 2000 years ago and all accounts of their words are second hand.

You are a product of the 20th and 21st century so I have different expectations of someone from that period.  Still, if a secondary source told me "DeRev said we should commit genocide" I would have the decency of letting you explain yourself. Afterall, it could be slander or it could have been taken out of context. Perhaps it was parody or you were trying to illustrate a greater point and had a provocative line to get audience attention.  In any event, I'd let you defend yourself or investigate the matter before coming to a conclusion on your character.

So, again, we do not know what Jesus said.  What we know is people years later wrote about what he said.  What was their motivation for doing so? Why do any accounts differ? What does it tell us about the region, culture or era in history?  I ask these things because Jesus can "say" a whole myriad of things to support the speaker's view.

Now, we move to the idea, which can be separated from the man.  If you think this hard to believe I will submit a more recent historical figure: Thomas Jefferson.  Jefferson is held up as a scholar and great thinker of his time, his writings are well known and respected and the man wrote "All men are created equal" which is a noble sentiment.  However, because we know much more about Jefferson and his lifestyle we know he owned slaves.  This makes things complicated because we respect his work and detest his lifestyle.  So, we have to understand the period of time he existed in.  It does not excuse the practice, but shed light on how cognitive dissonance in such a matter that "all men" meant "all land owning white guys" and how ideas grow and change based on our own experiences and views.

Turning to the notion "love your enemies" I would have to understand better what the notion of love and enemy meant.  I would counter we should strive to better understand one another, because in the vacuum ignorance thrives and breeds hatred.  Thus, we would move towards the removal of labels such as enemies in discourse.  We may not agree or love one another, but I think becoming a more tolerant society is a reasonable expectation to put upon us as a species.

So, I close saying as I did before that my natural instinct is to be friends with anyone I meet, but I cannot speak to someone shrouded by antiquity and interpretations by others.

In response to your paragraphs:

1)     1- I still think you’re the one complicating things. Maybe I should’tn have used the word “friend”, or maybe I should have asked could you agree with Jesus’ teachings?

2)     2 - Idon’t think there would be any need for explanation. For example, you have never met Hitler, would need him to explain his ideals in order for you to say whether or not you could be friends with him? It’s not very complicated, Jesus = Yes, Hitler = No.

3)      3 - You’re complicating things.

4)      4. Owning slaves in and of itself is not a bad thing. In fact, I believe Jesus teaches that if you’re a slave, then be the best slave you can be. Same as being an employee, be the best employee you can be – don’t cheat your master or your employer. The fact that someone did something bad or even owned slaves doesn’t make them a person that you shouldn’t be a friend. Anyways, with regard to Jesus, my point is that he was all good, not owning slaves or anything like that, so why not say you could be friends with him – unless you can find some dirt on him.

5)      5. You’re complicating things here again. “Love your enemies” means just what it says in everyday language. I agree that it would be extremely difficult to do, but I think there is no ambiguity in what Jesus is asking us to do, whether it’s Nintendo supporters embracing Sony fanboys or Israelis and Palestinians hugging it out, love your enemies means just what it says. Yes it would be hard to do, but is it an ideal that you can agree with.

6)      6. OK, but don’t go around telling anyone that you would first have to talk to Hitler, or any other murderous idealist, before you can decide whether or not you could be friends with him.

1. Could I agree with certain sentiments or ideas put forth?  Yes, just as easily as could disagree with others.  A single idea does not make a person though. I have mixed feelings about the various attributed teachings, but understand the context of th etime period and audience.

2. Envoking Godwin already? One does not need to meet Hitler for a few reasons.  We have exhaustive video footage of him speaking, he wrote an in depth book first hand "Mein Kampf" about his world view.  To compare anyone from the 20th century to anyone from the 1st century seems odd to me.

3. I don't feel I am, I think people and history are inherently complicated.  

4a. "Owning slaves in and of itself is not a bad thing".  Here is a statement I completely disagree with. Slavery is, to me, completely without any merit.  Human beings have worth and dignity that slavery rips from them. I am honestly astonished that anyone in 2013 would argue that owning slaves is not bad.  People are not chattel to be auctioned and bred for the good of others. You have caught me off guard, and honestly I do think less of you now knowing you'd condone such a reprehensible life style.

4b. I have suspicsions of anyone who claims to be "all good" because how they define such parameters of "good" and "evil" would be very interesting.  I certainly would say anyone who condones slavery has some moral ambiguity to put it lightly.

5. It honestly feels more sinister to tell people to be good to others and then twist the very meaning of good to include owning them.  I know this was done through history, but to still be held now shows the power such an ideal must hold.

6a. Again, Hitler is not someone we know little about.  We have thousands of resources in regards to his life and world view.  

6b. I am talking to you with the possibility of friendship, yet you hold views that are extremely dark and disturbing to my conscience.  If others ask though, I will say "DaRev is a complicated individual I do not know well enough to form a full opinion on."

I guess I'd say this if you really want a definitive answer. I think I'd have a hard time being your Jesus' friend because he comes across as very confused to proclaim love for humanity and then abide atrocities against that same humanity. I do appreciate you shedding more light and being honest about these darker traits though.