Could you and Jesus be friends?

[Augen]

DaRev said:

Augen said:

I think it is a complicated question.  You are asking if I would be friends with someone I have never met, who if they lived did so 2000 years ago and all accounts of their words are second hand.

You are a product of the 20th and 21st century so I have different expectations of someone from that period.  Still, if a secondary source told me "DeRev said we should commit genocide" I would have the decency of letting you explain yourself. Afterall, it could be slander or it could have been taken out of context. Perhaps it was parody or you were trying to illustrate a greater point and had a provocative line to get audience attention.  In any event, I'd let you defend yourself or investigate the matter before coming to a conclusion on your character.

So, again, we do not know what Jesus said.  What we know is people years later wrote about what he said.  What was their motivation for doing so? Why do any accounts differ? What does it tell us about the region, culture or era in history?  I ask these things because Jesus can "say" a whole myriad of things to support the speaker's view.

Now, we move to the idea, which can be separated from the man.  If you think this hard to believe I will submit a more recent historical figure: Thomas Jefferson.  Jefferson is held up as a scholar and great thinker of his time, his writings are well known and respected and the man wrote "All men are created equal" which is a noble sentiment.  However, because we know much more about Jefferson and his lifestyle we know he owned slaves.  This makes things complicated because we respect his work and detest his lifestyle.  So, we have to understand the period of time he existed in.  It does not excuse the practice, but shed light on how cognitive dissonance in such a matter that "all men" meant "all land owning white guys" and how ideas grow and change based on our own experiences and views.

Turning to the notion "love your enemies" I would have to understand better what the notion of love and enemy meant.  I would counter we should strive to better understand one another, because in the vacuum ignorance thrives and breeds hatred.  Thus, we would move towards the removal of labels such as enemies in discourse.  We may not agree or love one another, but I think becoming a more tolerant society is a reasonable expectation to put upon us as a species.

So, I close saying as I did before that my natural instinct is to be friends with anyone I meet, but I cannot speak to someone shrouded by antiquity and interpretations by others.

In response to your paragraphs:

1)     1- I still think you’re the one complicating things. Maybe I should’tn have used the word “friend”, or maybe I should have asked could you agree with Jesus’ teachings?

2)     2 - Idon’t think there would be any need for explanation. For example, you have never met Hitler, would need him to explain his ideals in order for you to say whether or not you could be friends with him? It’s not very complicated, Jesus = Yes, Hitler = No.

3)      3 - You’re complicating things.

4)      4. Owning slaves in and of itself is not a bad thing. In fact, I believe Jesus teaches that if you’re a slave, then be the best slave you can be. Same as being an employee, be the best employee you can be – don’t cheat your master or your employer. The fact that someone did something bad or even owned slaves doesn’t make them a person that you shouldn’t be a friend. Anyways, with regard to Jesus, my point is that he was all good, not owning slaves or anything like that, so why not say you could be friends with him – unless you can find some dirt on him.

5)      5. You’re complicating things here again. “Love your enemies” means just what it says in everyday language. I agree that it would be extremely difficult to do, but I think there is no ambiguity in what Jesus is asking us to do, whether it’s Nintendo supporters embracing Sony fanboys or Israelis and Palestinians hugging it out, love your enemies means just what it says. Yes it would be hard to do, but is it an ideal that you can agree with.

6)      6. OK, but don’t go around telling anyone that you would first have to talk to Hitler, or any other murderous idealist, before you can decide whether or not you could be friends with him.

1. Could I agree with certain sentiments or ideas put forth?  Yes, just as easily as could disagree with others.  A single idea does not make a person though. I have mixed feelings about the various attributed teachings, but understand the context of th etime period and audience.

2. Envoking Godwin already? One does not need to meet Hitler for a few reasons.  We have exhaustive video footage of him speaking, he wrote an in depth book first hand "Mein Kampf" about his world view.  To compare anyone from the 20th century to anyone from the 1st century seems odd to me.

3. I don't feel I am, I think people and history are inherently complicated.  

4a. "Owning slaves in and of itself is not a bad thing".  Here is a statement I completely disagree with. Slavery is, to me, completely without any merit.  Human beings have worth and dignity that slavery rips from them. I am honestly astonished that anyone in 2013 would argue that owning slaves is not bad.  People are not chattel to be auctioned and bred for the good of others. You have caught me off guard, and honestly I do think less of you now knowing you'd condone such a reprehensible life style.

4b. I have suspicsions of anyone who claims to be "all good" because how they define such parameters of "good" and "evil" would be very interesting.  I certainly would say anyone who condones slavery has some moral ambiguity to put it lightly.

5. It honestly feels more sinister to tell people to be good to others and then twist the very meaning of good to include owning them.  I know this was done through history, but to still be held now shows the power such an ideal must hold.

6a. Again, Hitler is not someone we know little about.  We have thousands of resources in regards to his life and world view.  

6b. I am talking to you with the possibility of friendship, yet you hold views that are extremely dark and disturbing to my conscience.  If others ask though, I will say "DaRev is a complicated individual I do not know well enough to form a full opinion on."

I guess I'd say this if you really want a definitive answer. I think I'd have a hard time being your Jesus' friend because he comes across as very confused to proclaim love for humanity and then abide atrocities against that same humanity. I do appreciate you shedding more light and being honest about these darker traits though.