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Forums - Gaming Discussion - 720 will Decide if WiiU RAM is enough.

happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

I'll cut to the chase.

People care about graphics. Joe average notices graphics and everyone has noticed the vast improvements as shown by the PS4 demos. The Wii U will almost certainly not get many games ported to it for numerous reasons:

1)Small user base
2)The cost of downgrading a game
3)The amount of downgrades required would inevitably and massively alter the game. 

You obviously aren't bothered about graphics, part of the reason being that you have never, ever seen leading graphics, yet want to proclaim how they aren't significantly better than what we currently have. That dude, is just complete ignorance. I'm actually willing to bet that the Wii U will be seen as 7th gen in the future rather than 8th gen, due to the lack of 8th gen games it'll get - people are already stating it's not 8th gen and thats before the PS4 launch.

Your thick is quite skull. I mentioned that I have seen what the new systems can do, I've watched the demos, and I have seen leading graphics, and I understand their appeal. However there are cases where I can really barely tell the difference unless I look in extreme scrutiny.

THAT is what I'm talking about.

As for your point, the thread isn't debating 1 or 2, but only point 3. And I disagree with your point 3 and current downscaling trends prove you wrong.

I don't care what the U will be seen like, what I care about are facts, and the facts disagree with your post (especially point 3), that's all there is to it.


Some questions:

1) Whats wrong with third parties not thinking the WIi U isn't next gen but accepting that its Nintendos next gen?

2) Why should third parties make sacrfices only for Nintendo (always)? Shouldn't the logic be if one doesn't have the specs then they're out of the race? 

3)  Why doesn't Nintendo bend their backs just a little to work in harmony with third parties? 

4)  Have you ever asked yourself why since the 90's Nintendo was never a threat to PC gaming or even arcade gaming for that matter? Why were they always made fun of by those two groups?

5) Where is Nintendo's major first party?

6) Why hasnt Nintendo never cared about pushing tech?

7) Why can't power help games evolve?

8) Why must art direction and the way games are meant to be seen be held back for Nintendo?

9) Why does Nintendo have the stigma of being considered to be a toy where as their counterparts are not?


I have more questions but answer those please.



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S.T.A.G.E. said:

Some questions:


I have more questions but answer those please.

Gladly.

1) Whats wrong with third parties not thinking the WIi U isn't next gen but accepting that its Nintendos next gen?

Third parties can think what they want (concerning Wii U being next gen). Whether they are correct or not depends on everyone's definition and perspective (and knowledge).

2) Why should third parties make sacrfices only for Nintendo (always)? Shouldn't the logic be if one doesn't have the specs then they're out of the race? 

Currently 3rd parties are opening the doors to other lower-end hardware (tablets). Why when it comes to Nintendo must 3rd parties play the blackmail game?

Ultimately this is about making money, so if games can sell on the system despite being downscaled, then having the specs needed to play a certain level of features shouldn't matter.

3)  Why doesn't Nintendo bend their backs just a little to work in harmony with third parties? 

Why should they? They have a business direction and their business direction doesn't align with that of 3rd parties. If 3rd parties want to make money on Nintendo's platforms, all they have to do is release games they believe will sell. It's not complex.

4)  Have you ever asked yourself why since the 90's Nintendo was never a threat to PC gaming or even arcade gaming for that matter? Why were they always made fun of by those two groups?

They were a threat to arcade gaming, matter of fact the sector was good as dead a few years ago due to competition from consoles (Nintendo, Sega, Sony), but got back alive thanks to value adds such as dance games, ski games, skateboards games, etc.

Dedicated PC gamers (I've always been a PC gamer, just not a strictly PC gamer) never respected Nintendo because they had the mouse and keyboard, could play point and click adventures, and also had the ability to play 3D games long before Nintendo. However PC games were rarely on the level of quality of Nintendo (and its 3rd parties') games, so they were mostly behaving foolishly.

5) Where is Nintendo's major first party?

You need to rephrase this question.

6) Why hasnt Nintendo never cared about pushing tech?

The have cared about pushing tech. The N64 and Gamecube testify to that, so does the SNES.

However, when the returns from pushing tech led to a losing battle (as of the Cube), Nintendo decided to throw that strategy to the garbage and follow their more successful strategy, the DS/NES/Wii/Gameboy strategy. They also believe that in time, with diminishing returns, they will arrive at the graphical levels the others are pushing without having to bleed money in the process. It will only take 10 years more, but in the meantime they are still making great games.

7) Why can't power help games evolve?

It can help games evolve. Power leads to the ability to make games that weren't previously possible. Examples are MAG, Pikmin, Assassin's Creed, Beyond. 

Power can also give games an aesthetic appeal and make a game feel more immersive.

8) Why must art direction and the way games are meant to be seen be held back for Nintendo?

Because they prefer not to bleed money and wait for the moment the tech is ready to be sold at a profit in a 2 to 3 hundred dollar console.

9) Why does Nintendo have the stigma of being considered to be a toy where as their counterparts are not?

Because they make an exaggerated amount of games that appeal to babies through bright colors and bland plots.

This is my gripe against the new Nintendo. That's why some Nintendo fans can't stand me, and hate my guts. (Rol, Moreno)



Captain_Tom said:
Pemalite said:
Captain_Tom said:


Low end and mid range?  AMD's released data of the 4-core Jaguar APU shows it coming close to an mobile i3.  The PS4 one will have 8 cores which should bring it close to an i3-2100/ i7-920 (Yes those are both the same gaming power).  Also the GPU is in between a 7850 and 7870.  That makes it stronger than the strongest AMD GPU 1.5 years ago, and it can still max out any game in 1080p.  It may be "Midrange," but this years midrange is way stronger than usual.  They then managed to put it on one die with the CPU!  That is impressive!

Yes, my  $1000 PC is 2-4 times stronger than the PS4, but it is impressive.  Nothing in the Wii U is anywhere near as impressive as that.  They took a 6570 and cut it way down so it uses small amounts of power.  Yay!


Actually the Core i7 920 has an edge in heavily threaded games, being a quaddy and all.
The i3 2100 is just a dual core core, so if what you say is true and those 8 jaguar cores are equivalent to a low-end i3 dual-core, then I reiterate it simply ain't good enough, I wan't next generation to *feel* like next generation and not just for the first couple of years either.

The Radeon 7850 and 7870 is Mid-Range. The Radeon 7950 and 7970 is high-end, the 7990 is enthusiast level stuff.
As for a 7850 maxing out any current game at 1080P, sure, i'll concede you that point, but games have been static in their system requirements for so long because of this current generation, how would a 7850 fair if games were pushing the envelope?
As for it being stronger than the fastest AMD GPU from 1.5 years ago, that's not correct either, it's slower than the fastest AMD GPU from 4 years ago, Aka. The Radeon 5970.



1) The i3-2100 beats the i7 80% of the time and in general they are about equal (Let's not quible about this).  The i3's are NOT lowly.  They cost $120-$150 dollars and are notoriously good gaming CPU's that have four threads btw (Ik not 4 cores).  Only noobs think i3=low end, and i7=beast.  Many i3's from today beat i7's from 2 years ago, and many i5's today beat other current i7's.  It's all marketing, you have to know your CPU to know if it is truly better.

2) There is no reason for the CPU to be any stronger.  An i7-920 only bottlenecks cards twice as strong as the one in the PS4 (If that).

3)I am not talking about dual-cards ever when I say "Strongest."  Those cards are really two cards in one, so it isn't even fair to compare them.  The 6970 from 1.5 years ago trades blows with the HD 7850, and the cards in the PS4 is a beefed up 7850.

4) The PS3 had a severely cut down 7800 which was also midrange.  The PS3 had 16x the RAM of the PS2 and it was faster (Just like the PS4 to PS3).  The Processor in the PS4 is probably only 2-3 times stronger than the one in the PS3, but then again the CELL was crazy strong for its time to the point that the other parts in the system bottlenecked the living hell out of it.  For all tense and purposes this gen is about the same leap (Theoretically) as the previous one.  So don't complain.  However the Wii U is again, massively behind this leap.  It is a generation behind.

You are talking about PC codes that are not optimized for multi-threading but more on brute force MHz(which is already slowly changing, thank goodness), which we know won't be the case for a closed environment like consoles, then again, a 920 would be overkill in something like the PS4.



happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

Seeing some compressed youtube video is about as reflective of the final product as seeing a Ferrari on a poster as it is to drive it. 
It's painfully clear you have no idea what you are on about.

Considering that release titles of the PS4 look better than end 7th gen games, I've no idea what point you are trying to make or what you are even referring to. 

LOLOLOL oh just stop talking. Yeah enjoy taking 7 cores down to 1 or 2 low clocked, inferior architecture, considerablly less and much slower RAM and onto a relatively piss-weak GPU. You may as well be talking about taking a PS4 game and scaling it to the 360. It won't happen. The fact your technical knowledge seems to ne non-existant makes me wonder why are you even debating this point?

Bud, you have no fucking clue about facts. Your tech knowledge seems to be non-existant. Stop being so damn stubborn. If you don't know anything about a topic, research it and THEN comment on it. Ignorance is not a justifiable argument.

Can Metro Last Light be played on the PS3 as well as on Max settings on PC? Crysis 3?

Just be quiet.

LOLOLOL.

Your ignorance is now turning into pretention (again, look it up in the dictionary before thinking it's an insult). 
Firstly, do you have any idea of the graphical difference between The PS3 and PC? 
Secondly, the PS3/360 is a market of  >140 Million consoles. 
Thirdly, the PS3/360 are at the end of their life cycle, so devs are fully acustomed to them. 

What you are propsing is to make Last Light playable on the PS2. 
As far as the tech is concered (DF article states this), the Wii U is in a different league to the PS4.

So here's a simple breakdown according to the DF guys and looking at purely hardware:
9th gen - Gaming PC
8th gen - PS4
7th gen - Wii U

Since when did a game stretch over 3 gens? If a game comes out on the PS4, is maxed out on PC, why would it also come out on Wii U? What game stretches 3 generations? Go away and stop guessing at something you don't understand. No dev will want to design a game for 8gb DDR3/GDDR5 and then be told "Now make it for 1gb. And a slower processor. With less cores. And no HDD as standard." 

 



Mazty said:
happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

Seeing some compressed youtube video is about as reflective of the final product as seeing a Ferrari on a poster as it is to drive it. 
It's painfully clear you have no idea what you are on about.

Considering that release titles of the PS4 look better than end 7th gen games, I've no idea what point you are trying to make or what you are even referring to. 

LOLOLOL oh just stop talking. Yeah enjoy taking 7 cores down to 1 or 2 low clocked, inferior architecture, considerablly less and much slower RAM and onto a relatively piss-weak GPU. You may as well be talking about taking a PS4 game and scaling it to the 360. It won't happen. The fact your technical knowledge seems to ne non-existant makes me wonder why are you even debating this point?

Bud, you have no fucking clue about facts. Your tech knowledge seems to be non-existant. Stop being so damn stubborn. If you don't know anything about a topic, research it and THEN comment on it. Ignorance is not a justifiable argument.

Can Metro Last Light be played on the PS3 as well as on Max settings on PC? Crysis 3?

Just be quiet.

LOLOLOL.

Your ignorance is now turning into pretention (again, look it up in the dictionary before thinking it's an insult). 
1) Firstly, do you have any idea of the graphical difference between The PS3 and PC? 
2) Secondly, the PS3/360 is a market of  >140 Million consoles. 
3) Thirdly, the PS3/360 are at the end of their life cycle, so devs are fully acustomed to them. 

4) What you are propsing is to make Last Light playable on the PS2. 
As far as the tech is concered (DF article states this), the Wii U is in a different league to the PS4.

So here's a simple breakdown according to the DF guys and looking at purely hardware:
9th gen - Gaming PC
8th gen - PS4
7th gen - Wii U

5) Since when did a game stretch over 3 gens? 6) If a game comes out on the PS4, is maxed out on PC, why would it also come out on Wii U? What game stretches 3 generations? 7) Go away and stop guessing at something you don't understand. 8) No dev will want to design a game for 8gb DDR3/GDDR5 and then be told "Now make it for 1gb. And a slower processor. With less cores. And no HDD as standard." 

 

Your arguments suck.

1) I do.

2) That's a business argument and has nothing to do with technical limitations.

3) So it's possible. You just disproved your original argument. Hey, if it comes from you, you can't call yourself a pretentious ignorant, can you? Good, that saves me the annoyance.

4) No, the PS2 wouldn't be able to handle it. Unlike the PS3 and WiiU. (you answered that yourself in 3)

5) Did you know that UE4 is being ported to tablets? Yeah, it's scalable.

6) Why shouldn't it? But regardless, that's not OP and you're off topic.

7) CENSORED for fear of ban.

8) If there's a business case for it they will do what they're told and keep quiet.



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Captain_Tom said:


LOL where do I start:

1) My claim in performance is not "bogus."  The Wii U basically has a cut down 6570 with DDR3, that IS half the strength of a GTS 250 at least.  

2) If the Wii U gets "Optimized" performance gains, than so does the GPU in the PS4 making the gap just as wide and your point irrelevent.  

3)No matter how you dice it, EA, 4A, Deep Silver, and other developers and publishers don't think the Wii U's weak specs is worth their time.  Whether its because they are "Lazy," or the Wii U is a console built by drunks is up for debate, but the end result is NO GAMES.

4) I understand what you are saying and it is: ill-informed, naive, and lacks support.  


The eDRAM offsets that somewhat, you'd be doing fast fetching at lower lantency that way, it's closer to how the 360 does it, and most likely much faster and more efficient in real world performance since it's newer hardware.

If publishers don't want to support the platform because they don't think the return is worth it, then so be it since they might make more money spending their resources on something else, or they might not, business is a constant gamble after all. NO GAMES, from those guys, but there will be plenty of games on the Wii U so I wouldn't worry too much about it lol.



happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

LOLOLOL.

Your ignorance is now turning into pretention (again, look it up in the dictionary before thinking it's an insult). 
1) Firstly, do you have any idea of the graphical difference between The PS3 and PC? 
2) Secondly, the PS3/360 is a market of  >140 Million consoles. 
3) Thirdly, the PS3/360 are at the end of their life cycle, so devs are fully acustomed to them. 

4) What you are propsing is to make Last Light playable on the PS2. 
As far as the tech is concered (DF article states this), the Wii U is in a different league to the PS4.

So here's a simple breakdown according to the DF guys and looking at purely hardware:
9th gen - Gaming PC
8th gen - PS4
7th gen - Wii U

5) Since when did a game stretch over 3 gens? 6) If a game comes out on the PS4, is maxed out on PC, why would it also come out on Wii U? What game stretches 3 generations? 7) Go away and stop guessing at something you don't understand. 8) No dev will want to design a game for 8gb DDR3/GDDR5 and then be told "Now make it for 1gb. And a slower processor. With less cores. And no HDD as standard." 

 

Your arguments suck.

1) I do.

2) That's a business argument and has nothing to do with technical limitations.

3) So it's possible. You just disproved your original argument. Hey, if it comes from you, you can't call yourself a pretentious ignorant, can you? Good, that saves me the annoyance.

4) No, the PS2 wouldn't be able to handle it. Unlike the PS3 and WiiU. (you answered that yourself in 3)

5) Did you know that UE4 is being ported to tablets? Yeah, it's scalable.

6) Why shouldn't it? But regardless, that's not OP and you're off topic.

7) CENSORED for fear of ban.

8) If there's a business case for it they will do what they're told and keep quiet.

Coming from the guy who has no technical knowledge or experience with high end graphics or the hardware......Yeah sure, it's my argument that sucks.....

No it's not possible because the average quality will get ramped up for the PS4, and not stay within 7th gen realms. Why are you pretending that the Wii U is compatible with PS4 games? It's not. Do you own a Wii U or something and are trying to justify your purchase?

UE4 is being ported to tablets in a considerably scaled down version. If you think you'll get anything close to even the Samaritan demo on tablets you have no idea what you are on about. Epic have already said UE4 is not for the Wii U. Didn't you catch that one?
http://uk.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/story.html?sid=6406190

Yeah. Enjoy. Since when have games for the PS3 and 360 been scaled BACKWARDS to work on the PS2 or xbox? That is what you are suggesting. Games will be scaled backwards to play on the Wii U. They won't. It's never happened and won't happen.
See. I said you don't know what you are on about and *shock horror* I was right. And there isn't a buisness case for it. It's more effort than it's worth and is something that has never, ever been done. 



Mazty said:
happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

LOLOLOL.

Your ignorance is now turning into pretention (again, look it up in the dictionary before thinking it's an insult). 
1) Firstly, do you have any idea of the graphical difference between The PS3 and PC? 
2) Secondly, the PS3/360 is a market of  >140 Million consoles. 
3) Thirdly, the PS3/360 are at the end of their life cycle, so devs are fully acustomed to them. 

4) What you are propsing is to make Last Light playable on the PS2. 
As far as the tech is concered (DF article states this), the Wii U is in a different league to the PS4.

So here's a simple breakdown according to the DF guys and looking at purely hardware:
9th gen - Gaming PC
8th gen - PS4
7th gen - Wii U

5) Since when did a game stretch over 3 gens? 6) If a game comes out on the PS4, is maxed out on PC, why would it also come out on Wii U? What game stretches 3 generations? 7) Go away and stop guessing at something you don't understand. 8) No dev will want to design a game for 8gb DDR3/GDDR5 and then be told "Now make it for 1gb. And a slower processor. With less cores. And no HDD as standard." 

 

Your arguments suck.

1) I do.

2) That's a business argument and has nothing to do with technical limitations.

3) So it's possible. You just disproved your original argument. Hey, if it comes from you, you can't call yourself a pretentious ignorant, can you? Good, that saves me the annoyance.

4) No, the PS2 wouldn't be able to handle it. Unlike the PS3 and WiiU. (you answered that yourself in 3)

5) Did you know that UE4 is being ported to tablets? Yeah, it's scalable.

6) Why shouldn't it? But regardless, that's not OP and you're off topic.

7) CENSORED for fear of ban.

8) If there's a business case for it they will do what they're told and keep quiet.

Coming from the guy who has no technical knowledge or experience with high end graphics or the hardware......Yeah sure, it's my argument that sucks.....

No it's not possible because the average quality will get ramped up for the PS4, and not stay within 7th gen realms. Why are you pretending that the Wii U is compatible with PS4 games? It's not. Do you own a Wii U or something and are trying to justify your purchase?

UE4 is being ported to tablets in a considerably scaled down version. If you think you'll get anything close to even the Samaritan demo on tablets you have no idea what you are on about. Epic have already said UE4 is not for the Wii U. Didn't you catch that one?
http://uk.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/story.html?sid=6406190

Yeah. Enjoy. Since when have games for the PS3 and 360 been scaled BACKWARDS to work on the PS2 or xbox? That is what you are suggesting. Games will be scaled backwards to play on the Wii U. They won't. It's never happened and won't happen.
See. I said you don't know what you are on about and *shock horror* I was right. And there isn't a buisness case for it. It's more effort than it's worth and is something that has never, ever been done. 


To be fair, I doubt the Samaritan demo can run that well on the PS4 lol, not to mention that demo runs on UE3 and not UE4 you silly goose. :P



Mazty said:

Coming from the guy who has no technical knowledge or experience with high end graphics or the hardware......1) Yeah sure, it's my argument that sucks.....

2) No it's not possible because the average quality will get ramped up for the PS4, and not stay within 7th gen realms. 3) Why are you pretending that the Wii U is compatible with PS4 games? It's not. Do you own a Wii U or something and are trying to justify your purchase?

UE4 is being ported to tablets in a considerably scaled down version. 4) If you think you'll get anything close to even the Samaritan demo on tablets you have no idea what you are on about. Epic have already said UE4 is not for the Wii U. 5) Didn't you catch that one?
http://uk.gamespot.com/events/gdc-2013/story.html?sid=6406190

6) Yeah. Enjoy. Since when have games for the PS3 and 360 been scaled BACKWARDS to work on the PS2 or xbox? That is what you are suggesting. Games will be scaled backwards to play on the Wii U. They won't. It's never happened and won't happen.
See. I said you don't know what you are on about and 7) *shock horror* I was right. And there isn't a buisness case for it. It's more effort than it's worth and is something that has never, ever been done. 

1) Your arguments suck, because they just inherrently do, irrespective of your perception of my knowledge on the matter. But your perception does not allow you to understand the depths of just how wrong you are, so it's a lost cause.

2) What is not possible?

3)  I'm not, it's a fact. Since Metro Last Light and Crysis 3 are considered gen 9 and PS4 is gen 8 (PER YOUR OWN POST) , then if PS3 can play scaled down versions of PC games, then so can the U,  since they are on par. No pretending here, just logic.

4) I think the word scaled down flaked out of your logical circuit. In other words, the games can be playable on the tablets, only stripped of many fancy features.

5) Can you link me to the post where I said Wii U was being supported by UE4? Also, I hope you realize the U is stronger than most current tablets. Or are you willing to say that the PS3 is weaker than tablets, sony fan that you are?

6) You are in a dream world. It's happening today (see point 3, using your own logic).

7) Shock horror indeed, you logic that is.



dahuman said:

To be fair, I doubt the Samaritan demo can run that well on the PS4 lol, not to mention that demo runs on UE3 and not UE4 you silly goose. :P


Oh yah I know it runs on UE3; I was just running with the idea that UE3 is more suited for the Wii U rather than UE4 as Epic rather vocally stated.

Slightly off topic but what kind of GPU performance would you put the PS4 on par with if you had to take a guess?