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Forums - Gaming Discussion - How will the Wii U fit games on the PS4, if the PS4 will have 7GB RAM available?

Pemalite said:
Michael-5 said:

This is a good point. Like I said RAM =/= graphics, but since it boosts load times, it will = larger landscapes and drawdistances. If games like Elder Scrolls push the PS4, they will look significantly crappier on the Wii U if downgraded, it's just not going to happen.

This is a common argument most say about more ram, that it will provide larger landscapes.
But people forget we have had games with sprawling landscapes for decades, take morrowind, it's game world is just as big as Oblivion and Skyrim, but did so with 1/8th of the ram.
Granted with techniques such as impostering, developers got around the need for large draw distances chewing up Ram.

The main grunt that's going to be driving next generation isn't going to be the Ram, that's just a cache, the processing is still all done on the CPU and GPU and is what will *really* drive next generation graphics and physics to new levels. (Although, I'm skepticle on the Physics part if developers use CPU based physics on the PS4's anemic processor.)

However, I beleive from a gameplay standpoint, nothing will change, in-fact they will probably get more linear and simple, it's a quest that developers have been on for years and is a plague in console games.

Yes, but you need to realize that Morrowwind does not have anywhere nearly as many objects on screen as Oblivion did, and the draw distance was much shorter.

Games like XenoBlade Chronicles managed to match the draw distance in Skyrim, but everything in Skyrim in rendered in game, where many distant backgrounds on XenoBlade are flat images (like the two giants).

Still, it is possible to have large landscapes and draw distances on consoles with significantly less RAM then competing systems. However if the designers of said game, don't design the game from the ground up to play on the Wii U, it could be impossible to port. A good example would be games which use the Unreal 4 engine, while possible to make Wii U games run on the Unreal 4 engine, it literally has to run at minimum graphics, and Unreal 3 will make much better games at that GPU performance standard.

---

As for your arguement at hand, I agree with you. I'm only arguing that unless games are designed from the begining to play on Wii U and PS4, they won't be ported to the Wii U down the road. However Wii U will see more multiplatform games then Wii did.



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zarx said:
Zero999 said:

bolded part: speaks for itself about you. If PC's use 3-4 GB then video games would require less than that to do more, so no console game will really need those 3 or 4GB for a good while. and even then it's totaly portable to wii u.

Now I don't want to get into a argument over whether the Wii U is a "next gen console" or some other fanboy crap, so I will just say I do consider Wii U an 8th generation console on account of it's release date and being a successor to the Wii. So you can stow that crap. I just used next gen games as an easy descriptor for future games built around currently unreleased hardware as a baseline. Clearly considering the topic on hand is about whether games designed around 7GB of available RAM is going to fit on the Wii U a game designed around current hardware including the Wii U would be irrelevent as it would already be designed to fit on such a platform. Sorry about using such a fanboy charged phrase. 


Console games don't use less RAM to do more, they just load less stuff into RAM because there is less available. If a game is designed to function with a minimum of 512MB of RAM but you have access to more RAM then it's a simple matter to more aggressively cache assets and also use higher fedality effects and larger frambuffers which use more RAM. Because that is the point of RAM to temporarily store data for fast access by the CPU and GPU, it's easy to scale up. Now a game designed around having 7GB of RAM available will obviously utilize a lot more RAM than one that is designed around 512MB and scaled up. So looking at the RAM usage of PC versions of current console games is not a very good indicator of what RAM usage will be like in future generations of games (as in future games to be clear, nothing to do with hardware settle down)  because their fundamental design at an engine level will likely be very different.

Now many if not most games will likely not be designed in a way that requires more than 1-2GB of RAM for it's gameplay and level design. But it is very possible to create one that does require far more, and if the RAM is there devs would be foolish not to use the extra RAM to insure a smoother experiance by caching more data to avoid unneccessary loading. Streaming bassed engines will of course be more scalable as a rule and most modern engines use a lot of data streaming these days so that could potentially help the Wii U's case but even then if the game is designed around having GBs of data available at any one time even with streaming the experiance would likely be poor if the game is constantly loading from disc as seen in Skyrim PS3 at launch (and that was caused by saves getting a few MBs to big if a certain Obsidian programmer is to be believed).


I am not discussing how mach RAM a game can end up using. My point is that most of the games won't require anything that can't be ported decently to wii u, be it RAM, shaders, gigaflops or whatever else.



Pemalite said:
Zero999 said:

I don't like to repeat myself, but in my very first post I explained the situation. it is of no relevance if ps4 has 7 ou 100 gb of RAM available for games because the games themselves shouldn't require even half of those 7 gb. also, if memory was a problem for wii u then it wouldn't be the most praised component by developers.


Just like how we would never need more than 640k of ram? Look where we are today please.


who is talking about 640k of ram? current consoles do what they do with 512 MB, you realy think a game NEEDS over 3 or 4GB?



Don't fogert PS4's RAM is also GDDR5.



Zero999 said:
Pemalite said:
Zero999 said:

I don't like to repeat myself, but in my very first post I explained the situation. it is of no relevance if ps4 has 7 ou 100 gb of RAM available for games because the games themselves shouldn't require even half of those 7 gb. also, if memory was a problem for wii u then it wouldn't be the most praised component by developers.


Just like how we would never need more than 640k of ram? Look where we are today please.


who is talking about 640k of ram? current consoles do what they do with 512 MB, you realy think a game NEEDS over 3 or 4GB?

That is a reference to a quote I believe by Bill Gates, saying "Who needs more than 640K?".  I had, in college, someone tell me the only computer someone needed wasa 386SX.



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TheTux94 said:
Don't fogert PS4's RAM is also GDDR5.

Still doesn't mean the Wii U couldn't get the games, just they wouldn't look as good.  If a game doesn't fit into memory, then it can't run.  It dependson how a game is coded actually.

I remember trying to run a 16K Pacman game for the Atari 8bit computer on an 8bit 8K Atari 400, and the results were NOT pretty.



Pemalite said:
Michael-5 said:

This is a good point. Like I said RAM =/= graphics, but since it boosts load times, it will = larger landscapes and drawdistances. If games like Elder Scrolls push the PS4, they will look significantly crappier on the Wii U if downgraded, it's just not going to happen.

This is a common argument most say about more ram, that it will provide larger landscapes.
But people forget we have had games with sprawling landscapes for decades, take morrowind, it's game world is just as big as Oblivion and Skyrim, but did so with 1/8th of the ram.
Granted with techniques such as impostering, developers got around the need for large draw distances chewing up Ram.

The main grunt that's going to be driving next generation isn't going to be the Ram, that's just a cache, the processing is still all done on the CPU and GPU and is what will *really* drive next generation graphics and physics to new levels. (Although, I'm skepticle on the Physics part if developers use CPU based physics on the PS4's anemic processor.)

However, I beleive from a gameplay standpoint, nothing will change, in-fact they will probably get more linear and simple, it's a quest that developers have been on for years and is a plague in console games.

So, you are seeing console games devolving into glorified versions of Dragon's Lair, with prettier graphics?



Michael-5 said:

Yes, but you need to realize that Morrowwind does not have anywhere nearly as many objects on screen as Oblivion did, and the draw distance was much shorter.

Games like XenoBlade Chronicles managed to match the draw distance in Skyrim, but everything in Skyrim in rendered in game, where many distant backgrounds on XenoBlade are flat images (like the two giants).


You're forgetting mods that fix all that in morrowind and doesn't drive up memory consumption of the game, but does drive up the CPU and GPU usage.

Zero999 said:


who is talking about 640k of ram? current consoles do what they do with 512 MB, you realy think a game NEEDS over 3 or 4GB?


It's called progression.

richardhutnik said:

So, you are seeing console games devolving into glorified versions of Dragon's Lair, with prettier graphics?


Play any PC exclusive, like Sins of a Solar Empire and you will know exactly what I mean. :) No "Push X to win"



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Michael-5 said:

Yes, but you need to realize that Morrowwind does not have anywhere nearly as many objects on screen as Oblivion did, and the draw distance was much shorter.

Games like XenoBlade Chronicles managed to match the draw distance in Skyrim, but everything in Skyrim in rendered in game, where many distant backgrounds on XenoBlade are flat images (like the two giants).


You're forgetting mods that fix all that in morrowind and doesn't drive up memory consumption of the game, but does drive up the CPU and GPU usage.

Yea, but Wii U isn't designed for future mods like a PC, and the GPU still isn't that spectacular.

Anyway, people are miking too much of a deal about RAM. Small RAM and a weak CPU were PS3 bottlenecks, and PS4 still has a weak CPU. Who cares about a million particles on screen, when theg raphics aren't much better then PS3?

That said, I HOPE Wii u gets some multiplatform games too. It's not fair that Nintendo is excluded.



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Michael-5 said:


Anyway, people are miking too much of a deal about RAM. Small RAM and a weak CPU were PS3 bottlenecks, and PS4 still has a weak CPU.

A common misconception that assumes "simple programs". Let's look at a hypothetical game with a few worker threads and a few "other" threads, take the worst example, 8 threads. On a dual core cpu, you immediately see the problem, every thread gets less than 1/4 of a core. On a quad-core, hyperthreading processor, each thread would roughly get (a little less than) half of a core. Suddenly your super 3.5GHz quad core processor behaves like an 8 core 1.6GHz processor. To make a long story short, whether the 8core PS4NextBox processor is weak or strong entirely depends on how the game code is organized. If it is well organized (particularly no cache stalls between the two 4core groups in the rumoured Jaguar-type processors), then an 8core processors could perform better than quad-cores. If you program a tic-tac-toe-like game on the PS4nextBox, then indeed the processors will be weak, otherwise 8 cores can (but need not be) a real bonus.