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Forums - Gaming - Indie games are mostly trash (Caution, rant)

richardhutnik on 11 April 2013
Wright said:
richardhutnik said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
There are some amazing indies out there, but it's true you need to dig through a lot of trash unfortunately ;(

And if Indie game: the movie is anything to go by, some indie devs are arrogant bitches

People who pour their lives into something, and sacrificed a lot for their craft, will have a tendency to get arrogant.  The arrogance projects an attitude meant to intimidate critics, and also ward off doubts they have within themselves.  This is particularly true among people who are one game wonders, and put their lives into a single game, thinking it is the next big thing.  I have run into this personally in the area of people who think they have the next Chess, and pour all their money and life savings into it.  You can also look up Bulletball for another example.  I personally ran into this a number of times with the non-profit IAGO, which was founded to promote the genre of games called "abstract strategy".  Some of the designers on the fringe are thr worst, and the worst of the worst, are the next chess guys.  I mean HORRIBLE.  And I got caught into a designer crossfire and ended up picking up one nemesis of nemesis who ended up calling me a "spineless Communist" regarding a forum I ran at the time.  This designer in question gets thrown off about every single forum he is on, and ended up dwelling on Usenet, because it lacks moderators.

So, yes, there is arrogance, IMMENSE arrogance out there.


I don't agree, with the "Pouring lives into something and then become arrogant because of that". Every person who sacrifies their youthness to achieve their dreams know better than the rest how hard has it been to reach it. I can understand them being defensive when their job is not as well as "paid" as they wanted, but that's one thing, becoming arrogant is another. Phil Fish, the creator behind Fez, is an arrogant and a douche, and has no real reason to be like that, except because he enjoys it. Then you've got the Super Meat Boy dev, who's a pretty cool man, you know. And he has probably worked as hard as Phil to achieve the quality of SMB.

My experience has been, dealing with a number of game designers, and also being one myself, is that it is easy to get caught up into your one project and hope to make it big, and become arrogant.  Not everyone is this, but numbers are, because of what happens.  Does it need to be this way?  No, it doesn't, but it easily can be that way.



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Wright on 11 April 2013
richardhutnik said:
Wright said:
richardhutnik said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
There are some amazing indies out there, but it's true you need to dig through a lot of trash unfortunately ;(

And if Indie game: the movie is anything to go by, some indie devs are arrogant bitches

People who pour their lives into something, and sacrificed a lot for their craft, will have a tendency to get arrogant.  The arrogance projects an attitude meant to intimidate critics, and also ward off doubts they have within themselves.  This is particularly true among people who are one game wonders, and put their lives into a single game, thinking it is the next big thing.  I have run into this personally in the area of people who think they have the next Chess, and pour all their money and life savings into it.  You can also look up Bulletball for another example.  I personally ran into this a number of times with the non-profit IAGO, which was founded to promote the genre of games called "abstract strategy".  Some of the designers on the fringe are thr worst, and the worst of the worst, are the next chess guys.  I mean HORRIBLE.  And I got caught into a designer crossfire and ended up picking up one nemesis of nemesis who ended up calling me a "spineless Communist" regarding a forum I ran at the time.  This designer in question gets thrown off about every single forum he is on, and ended up dwelling on Usenet, because it lacks moderators.

So, yes, there is arrogance, IMMENSE arrogance out there.


I don't agree, with the "Pouring lives into something and then become arrogant because of that". Every person who sacrifies their youthness to achieve their dreams know better than the rest how hard has it been to reach it. I can understand them being defensive when their job is not as well as "paid" as they wanted, but that's one thing, becoming arrogant is another. Phil Fish, the creator behind Fez, is an arrogant and a douche, and has no real reason to be like that, except because he enjoys it. Then you've got the Super Meat Boy dev, who's a pretty cool man, you know. And he has probably worked as hard as Phil to achieve the quality of SMB.

My experience has been, dealing with a number of game designers, and also being one myself, is that it is easy to get caught up into your one project and hope to make it big, and become arrogant.  Not everyone is this, but numbers are, because of what happens.  Does it need to be this way?  No, it doesn't, but it easily can be that way.


As a "game designer" myself, (well, sorta) and some friends of mine too, I can say that I'm easily frustrated despite being a patient man, but I don't feel like being a douche because of it. I'd hate to see my projects being canned or not well-received by the public, but that's something I'll have to live with.

 

Of course we have had different experiences, so that's it.



danasider on 11 April 2013

I have to agree with you for the most part.  Still, I can't help but fall in that category of critics who see how much the dev's have put into their games despite having a miniscule budget.  That appreciation really does affect my bias (and I am sure many others), but I see how you feel that indies are getting a pass despite offering so little in terms of production values when compared to big company games.

 

I will disagree with you on one point...Cave Story was awesome (not boring).  Some might see it as a metroidvania effort that didn't do much more than the source it was inspired from, but I don't see that as a bad thing.  It was smart, fun and well executed. And for 1 person (again my bias rears its ugly head) to do all that is impressive.  As an aspiring game designer, while playing it the game is an inspiration for what I want to achieve.  Yes, there will be games that offer more in terms of graphics, gameplay and replay, but Cave Story beats out some of my favorite SNES experiences because it offers all of the afortementioned with style.

 

I get the indie game generalization banter, but I can't help but refute the idea that Cave Story is an example of this.  I'm sure there are more deserving titles.



danasider on 11 April 2013
Wright said:
I liked OP's argument, until he brought Cave Story. A free game with more than 40 hours of gameplay, a huge sense of exploration and danger, a great story with different endings and, above all else, tough game but fun, and he says that beneath its retro style there's nothing?

What?


I wish we could 'like' posts, and then I wouldn't have to quote and post :)



richardhutnik on 11 April 2013
Wright said:
richardhutnik said:
Wright said:
richardhutnik said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
There are some amazing indies out there, but it's true you need to dig through a lot of trash unfortunately ;(

And if Indie game: the movie is anything to go by, some indie devs are arrogant bitches

People who pour their lives into something, and sacrificed a lot for their craft, will have a tendency to get arrogant.  The arrogance projects an attitude meant to intimidate critics, and also ward off doubts they have within themselves.  This is particularly true among people who are one game wonders, and put their lives into a single game, thinking it is the next big thing.  I have run into this personally in the area of people who think they have the next Chess, and pour all their money and life savings into it.  You can also look up Bulletball for another example.  I personally ran into this a number of times with the non-profit IAGO, which was founded to promote the genre of games called "abstract strategy".  Some of the designers on the fringe are thr worst, and the worst of the worst, are the next chess guys.  I mean HORRIBLE.  And I got caught into a designer crossfire and ended up picking up one nemesis of nemesis who ended up calling me a "spineless Communist" regarding a forum I ran at the time.  This designer in question gets thrown off about every single forum he is on, and ended up dwelling on Usenet, because it lacks moderators.

So, yes, there is arrogance, IMMENSE arrogance out there.


I don't agree, with the "Pouring lives into something and then become arrogant because of that". Every person who sacrifies their youthness to achieve their dreams know better than the rest how hard has it been to reach it. I can understand them being defensive when their job is not as well as "paid" as they wanted, but that's one thing, becoming arrogant is another. Phil Fish, the creator behind Fez, is an arrogant and a douche, and has no real reason to be like that, except because he enjoys it. Then you've got the Super Meat Boy dev, who's a pretty cool man, you know. And he has probably worked as hard as Phil to achieve the quality of SMB.

My experience has been, dealing with a number of game designers, and also being one myself, is that it is easy to get caught up into your one project and hope to make it big, and become arrogant.  Not everyone is this, but numbers are, because of what happens.  Does it need to be this way?  No, it doesn't, but it easily can be that way.


As a "game designer" myself, (well, sorta) and some friends of mine too, I can say that I'm easily frustrated despite being a patient man, but I don't feel like being a douche because of it. I'd hate to see my projects being canned or not well-received by the public, but that's something I'll have to live with.

 

Of course we have had different experiences, so that's it.

There is a temptation, facing repeated rejection, to end up turning out to be a jerk, particularly if you get some success.  You end up, based upon people being a repeated jerk to you, or showing no respect, to pay it back, or expect that behavior is what goes along with being a success.  One can also end up, if there is a lot of demands put on someone that don't really help to push people away.  I can't speak fully to the designer of Fez, and what he did, but I do see it elsewhere.

You get stuff like the intro to "Get Back" (see here):

You will run into people who want things of you who are jerks...



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Wright on 11 April 2013
richardhutnik said:

There is a temptation, facing repeated rejection, to end up turning out to be a jerk, particularly if you get some success.  You end up, based upon people being a repeated jerk to you, or showing no respect, to pay it back, or expect that behavior is what goes along with being a success.  One can also end up, if there is a lot of demands put on someone that don't really help to push people away.  I can't speak fully to the designer of Fez, and what he did, but I do see it elsewhere.

You get stuff like the intro to "Get Back" (see here):

[Ludacris; although I like more "Move Bitch" =P]

You will run into people who want things of you who are jerks...


Mmmm...I do see the point that you're making. Perhaps I was raised with a more open-minded regarding these things. I do thing being a douche can hurt your success, as well as demonstrate that you're not worthy of having that success. I mean, there's already a lot of douches in the gaming industry (As well as in other places), but there's also lots of developers who are pretty cool. I know this might be the typical one, but people at Valve is pretty nice. Then you have Warren Spector, Peter Molyneux (A bit on the arrogant side sometimes, but he's a nice man if you've seen videos of him), several guys at Bioware, the Super Meat Boy dev, Jonathan Blow (Well, he's kind of emo, but that does not void my argument!). I don't know. There are veteran's in the gaming world that are douches, but then there are a lot of them that have been great through the years.



richardhutnik on 11 April 2013
Wright said:
richardhutnik said:

There is a temptation, facing repeated rejection, to end up turning out to be a jerk, particularly if you get some success.  You end up, based upon people being a repeated jerk to you, or showing no respect, to pay it back, or expect that behavior is what goes along with being a success.  One can also end up, if there is a lot of demands put on someone that don't really help to push people away.  I can't speak fully to the designer of Fez, and what he did, but I do see it elsewhere.

You get stuff like the intro to "Get Back" (see here):

[Ludacris; although I like more "Move Bitch" =P]

You will run into people who want things of you who are jerks...


Mmmm...I do see the point that you're making. Perhaps I was raised with a more open-minded regarding these things. I do thing being a douche can hurt your success, as well as demonstrate that you're not worthy of having that success. I mean, there's already a lot of douches in the gaming industry (As well as in other places), but there's also lots of developers who are pretty cool. I know this might be the typical one, but people at Valve is pretty nice. Then you have Warren Spector, Peter Molyneux (A bit on the arrogant side sometimes, but he's a nice man if you've seen videos of him), several guys at Bioware, the Super Meat Boy dev, Jonathan Blow (Well, he's kind of emo, but that does not void my argument!). I don't know. There are veteran's in the gaming world that are douches, but then there are a lot of them that have been great through the years.

There appears to be not much correlation between success and being a jerk, but a mix of luck hitting the right network at the right time with the right item in sufficient quality.  Part of it comes out of having a diva complex, which tends to happen in the area of the arts.  What can happens is the right thing hits at the right time, and the person gets the 15 minutes of fame which can last.    Being  a jerk can result in one getting less chances, but for those who make it, it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean so.  I can say that success makes one more of who they are on the inside.

It can be said to not burn bridges, but also nice guys finish last.  It is a lot about luck actually.  But also the fact that things could become popular after an artist dies, can also make for the case that who a person is doesn't matter that much.

I also do remember Louis CK's advice about not being a jerk in an event where he was interviewed by some college students, also telling them bluntly that they weren't going to get into the industry (statistically speaking), so if you do get a break, don't make life hard for people.



curl-6 on 12 April 2013

I feel I should add that I have enormous respect for Indie devs who actually manage to produce high quality games. 2D Boy, for instance.



zarx on 12 April 2013
curl-6 said:
I feel I should add that I have enormous respect for Indie devs who actually manage to produce high quality games. 2D Boy, for instance.


They have made one game... And it's way over rated IMO.



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Wright on 12 April 2013
curl-6 said:
I feel I should add that I have enormous respect for Indie devs who actually manage to produce high quality games. 2D Boy, for instance.


You gotta try Faster Than Light; I wanna see your impressions! D: