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Forums - Gaming - Indie games are mostly trash (Caution, rant)

sales2099 on 10 April 2013

Well, Indie devs are by definition under funded and under-staffed. All they really have is their own creativity.

We do get gems now and again, but the vast majority is all trial-and-error shovelware.



Xbox: Best hardware, Game Pass best value, best BC, more 1st party genres and multiplayer titles. 

 

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Turkish on 10 April 2013

I only like a handful of indie games: the best. I reckon a majority of them are mediocre just like the majority of AAA games are not Bioshock, Tomb Raider or Uncharted



theprof00 on 10 April 2013
sales2099 said:
Well, Indie devs are by definition under funded and under-staffed. All they really have is their own creativity.

We do get gems now and again, but the vast majority is all trial-and-error shovelware.


But see, we don't even have to go beyond sony/ms fans to see subjectively how much shovelware is in the corporate side either.

curl-6 on 10 April 2013
theprof00 said:
curl-6 said:
theprof00 said:
curl-6 said:

Good ideas aren't dependent on budget, there's no reason Indie devs can't make a game as good as something like Mass Effect. (World of Goo is) Indie devs aren't held back from creating greatness by money or manpower, just their own talent, or lack thereof.

I'm not holding them to the same graphical standards. Graphics and production values don't determine a game's value, enjoyable gameplay does, and that's where the poverty excuse just doesn't fly.

I don't really care if they win awards, or sell more, or if others like them. They're entitled to their opinion, just as I'm entitled to my opinion that they are 98% faecal matter.

I've found you win far more friends by being accepting than by being critical. It's always good to have high standards, but the fact that you use the words "high standards" is as much of the problem as you having them. It is not 'high standards' that you have, it's that you enjoy a highly polished, mainstream, involved kind of game. That has nothing to do with standards.

Standards would involve reaching a certain level of excellence, and unfortunately for your argument, awards do prove that.

I'm tired of avoiding conflictand only saying nice things, honestly. Criticism is not inherently bad. If we only ever talked about the things we liked and approved of, this forum would get awfully boring.

It's high standards not because I consider them better than anyone else's, but because I find I reject the vast majority of games as undesirable to me. High as in only the games that rate the highest with me get my time. That doesn't make me elitist, it simply means I have different set of requirements of games to the majority.

Awards only prove a game is popular with one organization or group of people. Game quality is subjective, it cannot be proven.

If it's high standards according to your own metric, then surely you must admit that trash is only subjective to you.
I know you will agree with that, because that seems to be your current argument- that this is all opinion piece.

However, mocking these games and gamers with 'trendy to love', and 'shallow affairs', and 'indie games get a pass for being indie'.....while those words certainly can be described as your opinion, let me share with you an opinion of my own.

You have a specific direction here. The wording you use implies that these games, and the people who play them, are superficial, trite, meandering, and boring. In your insistence to acknowledge outside criticism of your rubrick, you hold fast to the concept that these ideas are indelible by virtue of opinion. ie; you are not wrong because that is what you believe. Intransigence is not an entertaining quality, nor is it realistic - it is a sign of insecurity, highlighted by your own expression of being 'tired' read: "frustrated". 

Have you been spurned somehow, for lack of attention? Not able to understand why your tastes aren't being agreed with? Or perhaps too many people are enjoying games you find beneath you.

Your attitude is certainly one that can be described as elitest, and my advice to you would be to give in to the things you mock. Play ios games, play indie games, play what you see people playing on the train. Keep playing them until you like them. Get lost in the indie world because the independants aren't just moving games right now...they're moving a vast majority of software on EVERY platform. Hell, teach yourself how to program. Don't condemn indie for being popular. Become indie, because the indie of today is the corp of tomorrow.

Even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were indie developers.

Nice try Sigmund Freud, but no. You're overanalysing.

I dislike Indie games, and it feels good to vent, it's as simple as that. If I was an elitist, I'd be slamming the people who disagree with me with "lulz, ur opinion iz wrong, u haz bad taste in gaemz and u r stoopid!"

And why on earth would I want to immerse myself in a segment of gaming I find to be woefully inferior? It would be a waste of my time, and a waste of my money.



theprof00 on 10 April 2013
curl-6 said:
theprof00 said:
curl-6 said:
theprof00 said:
curl-6 said:

Good ideas aren't dependent on budget, there's no reason Indie devs can't make a game as good as something like Mass Effect. (World of Goo is) Indie devs aren't held back from creating greatness by money or manpower, just their own talent, or lack thereof.

I'm not holding them to the same graphical standards. Graphics and production values don't determine a game's value, enjoyable gameplay does, and that's where the poverty excuse just doesn't fly.

I don't really care if they win awards, or sell more, or if others like them. They're entitled to their opinion, just as I'm entitled to my opinion that they are 98% faecal matter.

I've found you win far more friends by being accepting than by being critical. It's always good to have high standards, but the fact that you use the words "high standards" is as much of the problem as you having them. It is not 'high standards' that you have, it's that you enjoy a highly polished, mainstream, involved kind of game. That has nothing to do with standards.

Standards would involve reaching a certain level of excellence, and unfortunately for your argument, awards do prove that.

I'm tired of avoiding conflictand only saying nice things, honestly. Criticism is not inherently bad. If we only ever talked about the things we liked and approved of, this forum would get awfully boring.

It's high standards not because I consider them better than anyone else's, but because I find I reject the vast majority of games as undesirable to me. High as in only the games that rate the highest with me get my time. That doesn't make me elitist, it simply means I have different set of requirements of games to the majority.

Awards only prove a game is popular with one organization or group of people. Game quality is subjective, it cannot be proven.

If it's high standards according to your own metric, then surely you must admit that trash is only subjective to you.
I know you will agree with that, because that seems to be your current argument- that this is all opinion piece.

However, mocking these games and gamers with 'trendy to love', and 'shallow affairs', and 'indie games get a pass for being indie'.....while those words certainly can be described as your opinion, let me share with you an opinion of my own.

You have a specific direction here. The wording you use implies that these games, and the people who play them, are superficial, trite, meandering, and boring. In your insistence to acknowledge outside criticism of your rubrick, you hold fast to the concept that these ideas are indelible by virtue of opinion. ie; you are not wrong because that is what you believe. Intransigence is not an entertaining quality, nor is it realistic - it is a sign of insecurity, highlighted by your own expression of being 'tired' read: "frustrated". 

Have you been spurned somehow, for lack of attention? Not able to understand why your tastes aren't being agreed with? Or perhaps too many people are enjoying games you find beneath you.

Your attitude is certainly one that can be described as elitest, and my advice to you would be to give in to the things you mock. Play ios games, play indie games, play what you see people playing on the train. Keep playing them until you like them. Get lost in the indie world because the independants aren't just moving games right now...they're moving a vast majority of software on EVERY platform. Hell, teach yourself how to program. Don't condemn indie for being popular. Become indie, because the indie of today is the corp of tomorrow.

Even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were indie developers.

Nice try Sigmund Freud, but no. You're overanalysing.

I dislike Indie games, and it feels good to vent, it's as simple as that. If I was an elitist, I'd be slamming the people who disagree with me with "lulz, ur opinion iz wrong, u haz bad taste in gaemz and u r stoopid!"

And why on earth would I want to immerse myself in a segment of gaming I find to be woefully inferior? It would be a waste of my time, and a waste of my money.

passive-aggression, however disguised, is still aggression.

What feels good about venting?

What do you think when you see someone in the train playing angry birds?



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richardhutnik on 10 April 2013
Andrespetmonkey said:
There are some amazing indies out there, but it's true you need to dig through a lot of trash unfortunately ;(

And if Indie game: the movie is anything to go by, some indie devs are arrogant bitches

People who pour their lives into something, and sacrificed a lot for their craft, will have a tendency to get arrogant.  The arrogance projects an attitude meant to intimidate critics, and also ward off doubts they have within themselves.  This is particularly true among people who are one game wonders, and put their lives into a single game, thinking it is the next big thing.  I have run into this personally in the area of people who think they have the next Chess, and pour all their money and life savings into it.  You can also look up Bulletball for another example.  I personally ran into this a number of times with the non-profit IAGO, which was founded to promote the genre of games called "abstract strategy".  Some of the designers on the fringe are thr worst, and the worst of the worst, are the next chess guys.  I mean HORRIBLE.  And I got caught into a designer crossfire and ended up picking up one nemesis of nemesis who ended up calling me a "spineless Communist" regarding a forum I ran at the time.  This designer in question gets thrown off about every single forum he is on, and ended up dwelling on Usenet, because it lacks moderators.

So, yes, there is arrogance, IMMENSE arrogance out there.



richardhutnik on 10 April 2013

Regarding the Indie stuff, I would need to warn people about what is going on.  Unless the videogame industry gets its stuff together, all you are going to have left is Indie guys cranking out content, with the rare gem popping through, and a few major franchises on top which will end up playing out like Scorcher (cue the trailer from Tropic Thunder):



Wright on 10 April 2013
richardhutnik said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
There are some amazing indies out there, but it's true you need to dig through a lot of trash unfortunately ;(

And if Indie game: the movie is anything to go by, some indie devs are arrogant bitches

People who pour their lives into something, and sacrificed a lot for their craft, will have a tendency to get arrogant.  The arrogance projects an attitude meant to intimidate critics, and also ward off doubts they have within themselves.  This is particularly true among people who are one game wonders, and put their lives into a single game, thinking it is the next big thing.  I have run into this personally in the area of people who think they have the next Chess, and pour all their money and life savings into it.  You can also look up Bulletball for another example.  I personally ran into this a number of times with the non-profit IAGO, which was founded to promote the genre of games called "abstract strategy".  Some of the designers on the fringe are thr worst, and the worst of the worst, are the next chess guys.  I mean HORRIBLE.  And I got caught into a designer crossfire and ended up picking up one nemesis of nemesis who ended up calling me a "spineless Communist" regarding a forum I ran at the time.  This designer in question gets thrown off about every single forum he is on, and ended up dwelling on Usenet, because it lacks moderators.

So, yes, there is arrogance, IMMENSE arrogance out there.


I don't agree, with the "Pouring lives into something and then become arrogant because of that". Every person who sacrifies their youthness to achieve their dreams know better than the rest how hard has it been to reach it. I can understand them being defensive when their job is not as well as "paid" as they wanted, but that's one thing, becoming arrogant is another. Phil Fish, the creator behind Fez, is an arrogant and a douche, and has no real reason to be like that, except because he enjoys it. Then you've got the Super Meat Boy dev, who's a pretty cool man, you know. And he has probably worked as hard as Phil to achieve the quality of SMB.



Fayceless on 11 April 2013

I wish I had seen this a couple days ago so I could rip into your for using CAVE STORY as an example of a game with "little to offer." It has so much more to offer than many big-budget games these days, AND it was made by one guy as a hobby, you can still get the original version free. It IS a fantastic game.

Now, there are many shallow indie games out there. Pick better examples, not just ones that don't fit your taste.



curl-6 on 11 April 2013
theprof00 said:
curl-6 said:
theprof00 said:
curl-6 said:
theprof00 said:
curl-6 said:

Good ideas aren't dependent on budget, there's no reason Indie devs can't make a game as good as something like Mass Effect. (World of Goo is) Indie devs aren't held back from creating greatness by money or manpower, just their own talent, or lack thereof.

I'm not holding them to the same graphical standards. Graphics and production values don't determine a game's value, enjoyable gameplay does, and that's where the poverty excuse just doesn't fly.

I don't really care if they win awards, or sell more, or if others like them. They're entitled to their opinion, just as I'm entitled to my opinion that they are 98% faecal matter.

I've found you win far more friends by being accepting than by being critical. It's always good to have high standards, but the fact that you use the words "high standards" is as much of the problem as you having them. It is not 'high standards' that you have, it's that you enjoy a highly polished, mainstream, involved kind of game. That has nothing to do with standards.

Standards would involve reaching a certain level of excellence, and unfortunately for your argument, awards do prove that.

I'm tired of avoiding conflictand only saying nice things, honestly. Criticism is not inherently bad. If we only ever talked about the things we liked and approved of, this forum would get awfully boring.

It's high standards not because I consider them better than anyone else's, but because I find I reject the vast majority of games as undesirable to me. High as in only the games that rate the highest with me get my time. That doesn't make me elitist, it simply means I have different set of requirements of games to the majority.

Awards only prove a game is popular with one organization or group of people. Game quality is subjective, it cannot be proven.

If it's high standards according to your own metric, then surely you must admit that trash is only subjective to you.
I know you will agree with that, because that seems to be your current argument- that this is all opinion piece.

However, mocking these games and gamers with 'trendy to love', and 'shallow affairs', and 'indie games get a pass for being indie'.....while those words certainly can be described as your opinion, let me share with you an opinion of my own.

You have a specific direction here. The wording you use implies that these games, and the people who play them, are superficial, trite, meandering, and boring. In your insistence to acknowledge outside criticism of your rubrick, you hold fast to the concept that these ideas are indelible by virtue of opinion. ie; you are not wrong because that is what you believe. Intransigence is not an entertaining quality, nor is it realistic - it is a sign of insecurity, highlighted by your own expression of being 'tired' read: "frustrated". 

Have you been spurned somehow, for lack of attention? Not able to understand why your tastes aren't being agreed with? Or perhaps too many people are enjoying games you find beneath you.

Your attitude is certainly one that can be described as elitest, and my advice to you would be to give in to the things you mock. Play ios games, play indie games, play what you see people playing on the train. Keep playing them until you like them. Get lost in the indie world because the independants aren't just moving games right now...they're moving a vast majority of software on EVERY platform. Hell, teach yourself how to program. Don't condemn indie for being popular. Become indie, because the indie of today is the corp of tomorrow.

Even Bill Gates and Steve Jobs were indie developers.

Nice try Sigmund Freud, but no. You're overanalysing.

I dislike Indie games, and it feels good to vent, it's as simple as that. If I was an elitist, I'd be slamming the people who disagree with me with "lulz, ur opinion iz wrong, u haz bad taste in gaemz and u r stoopid!"

And why on earth would I want to immerse myself in a segment of gaming I find to be woefully inferior? It would be a waste of my time, and a waste of my money.

passive-aggression, however disguised, is still aggression.

What feels good about venting?

What do you think when you see someone in the train playing angry birds?

I don't feel anything in particular when I see someone playing angry birds. I did however, feel quite bored and annoyed when I played it for myself.