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Forums - General - Why are we still fighting for equality in America. "Gay Marriage and Religion"

Roma on 08 February 2013
dsgrue3 said:
Roma said:

man can't you understand simple logic? the universe came from nothing as in no atoms no nothing, it just magically appeared and then formed itself by itself to become the universe that my friend is logic not that there is someone who created the atoms and then formed them to the universe as that doesn't make sense!


I expect you to know this is sarcasm but just in case

 

It's incredibly difficult to take you seriously when you make posts like these completely devoid of any intelligence. You know what, I'm through replying to you since you have no capacity for rational thought and blindly take the Qur'an as if it were some substantiated scientific explanation for everything. It's a book. If you weren't so blinded by your own devotion to your faith, you would perhaps be able to engage in intelligent discussions - until then, good day. Enjoy the kids table.

Take a tip from Player1x3, he isn't in your camp of blissful ignorance. He speaks intelligently on the topic and has the capacity to receive, respond to, and dictate conversation points.

did I hit a nerve?

well I could go down to your level but I would rather just report you instead





    R.I.P Mr Iwata :'(

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dsgrue3 on 08 February 2013
Roma said:

did I hit a nerve?

well I could go down to your level but I would rather just report you instead

Reported for baiting.



Player1x3 on 08 February 2013
dsgrue3 said:
Player1x3 said:

I would expect some evidence, no matter how insignificant. But there isn't any.

Wheres faith in that? Why would God ever show himself in the way atheists demand? Not only would that defeat the whole purpose of faith/Christianity, but it would completly change our species forever...and not in a good way im afriad

Stating that a higher power is a likely existence is completely inaccurate. Why do you state this as if it were true?

So you think that everything that came to exist today in our universe and our planet came origianlly from nothing and it was all an accident?? Let me tell you, THAT is highly unlikely, Do the math. Existance of a higher power (of any kind) is billion times more likely than that. 

The point was that you falsely stated that atheists deny the existence of God - this is blatantly fallacious and slanderous to their viewpoint. (I agree, a theist can take an agnostic stance with logic/philosophy but I've never received experience with such a situation).

Atheism by definition, denies the belief in God, as in Athests dont thnik a God exists

Player1x3 said:

Well you said how he used real world examples to prove how stupid theists are...so why not use both sides of the story. He intentionally picked only the bad sides, when its obvious that the good side outweights the bad (today at least, it wasnt always the case)

 

I never said stupid. Good outweighing bad doesn't make the bad go away and that is what he wanted to bring to your attention.

No, he wanted to point out to something that was completly irrelevant to my point.

 



You admit there isn't any evidence and then proceed to attempt to rationalize why there is no evidence. This is really odd to read. 

I don't pretend to know how the Universe came to be, but I know the best possible scientific explanation for humans - look into abiogenesis and phylogeny. It certainly does not require a Creator.

Yes atheism is disbelief in God. Disbelief in his existence, that isn't remotely the same as denying existence of God. I wouldn't do that, nor would any rational person. I would never say God doesn't exist, I will always say I do not belief he exists.

PS: Can you stop replying within the quotation?


I said theres no evidence in the way Atheists demand it to be.And it probably never will be. Just as theres never going to be any evidence to support otherwise I can say that in my spiritual life and development I've encounterd tons of evidence for God. But this evidence would hold no ground on discussions such as this, so I dont present it as an actual evidence because its from my personal experience and it would be meaningless to a 2nd party . You'd have to believe to understand it.

Im somewhat fimiliar with Abiogenesis and phylogeny. But these have nothing to do with the Creation of Universe (which triggered everything in its existance and thus ultimately led to these 2 things), but with evolution of species on our planet, which i fully accept and recognize. I dont see how does that in anyway contradict or disprove a Creator, care to explain ? Why cant biology and nature be God's work too?

By not believing in God, you deny his existance, maybe not on an objective level, but on subjective



Screamapillar on 08 February 2013
badgenome said:
Immortal said:
Brad Pitt, really? Are atheists really scraping the bottom of the barrel now?

He was pretty good in that one movie where you couldn't understand anything he said except for, "D'ya like dags?"


SNATCH!

Classic movie.



The Screamapillar is easily identified by its constant screaming—it even screams in its sleep. The Screamapillar is the favorite food of everything, is sexually attracted to fire, and needs constant reassurance or it will die.

Mr Khan on 08 February 2013

Cool off, dsgrue and roma. I'd rather not have to do any moderating...



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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dsgrue3 on 08 February 2013
Player1x3 said:

I said theres no evidence in the way Atheists demand it to be.And it probably never will be. Just as theres never going to be any evidence to support otherwise I can say that in my spiritual life and development I've encounterd tons of evidence for God. But this evidence would hold no ground on discussions such as this, so I dont present it as an actual evidence because its from my personal experience and it would be meaningless to a 2nd party . You'd have to believe to understand it.

Im somewhat fimiliar with Abiogenesis and phylogeny. But these have nothing to do with the Creation of Universe (which triggered everything in its existance and thus ultimately led to these 2 things), but with evolution of species on our planet, which i fully accept and recognize. I dont see how does that in anyway contradict or disprove a Creator, care to explain ? Why cant biology and nature be God's work too?

By not believing in God, you deny his existance, maybe not on an objective level, but on subjective

That is the greatest undoing in my opinion. Without evidence, tangible or theoretically sound, it's quite difficult to subtantiate your belief. 

Yes, I wanted to avoid the creation of the universe because there isn't much established from a scientific perspective. There are theories such as coming from nothing, which Roma mocked ignorantly. This "nothing" isn't nothing from classical physics, it's nothing from modern physics - no time, no particles, no space even. It isn't a vast emptiness "nothing". This is substantiated by the fact that the net energy of the Universe can be described as 0. We know dark energy makes up 74% of the Universe but we have no idea what it is - it is what scientists label the cause for the accelerated expansion of the Universe. 

"coming from nothing" - is a concept that is difficult to grasp, but we see this in quantum mechanics with particles popping in and out of existence at seemingly random. We see many quirky things at a quantum level that are very counter-intuitive (coming from nothing).

When you shoot a single photon particle through a divergent path, you would expect the photon to choose a side. It doesn't. It goes through both paths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment



Player1x3 on 08 February 2013
dsgrue3 said:
Player1x3 said:

I said theres no evidence in the way Atheists demand it to be.And it probably never will be. Just as theres never going to be any evidence to support otherwise I can say that in my spiritual life and development I've encounterd tons of evidence for God. But this evidence would hold no ground on discussions such as this, so I dont present it as an actual evidence because its from my personal experience and it would be meaningless to a 2nd party . You'd have to believe to understand it.

Im somewhat fimiliar with Abiogenesis and phylogeny. But these have nothing to do with the Creation of Universe (which triggered everything in its existance and thus ultimately led to these 2 things), but with evolution of species on our planet, which i fully accept and recognize. I dont see how does that in anyway contradict or disprove a Creator, care to explain ? Why cant biology and nature be God's work too?

By not believing in God, you deny his existance, maybe not on an objective level, but on subjective

That is the greatest undoing in my opinion. Without evidence, tangible or theoretically sound, it's quite difficult to subtantiate your belief. 

Yes, I wanted to avoid the creation of the universe because there isn't much established from a scientific perspective. There are theories such as coming from nothing, which Roma mocked ignorantly. This "nothing" isn't nothing from classical physics, it's nothing from modern physics - no time, no particles, no space even. It isn't a vast emptiness "nothing". This is substantiated by the fact that the net energy of the Universe can be described as 0. We know dark energy makes up 74% of the Universe but we have no idea what it is - it is what scientists label the cause for the accelerated expansion of the Universe. 

"coming from nothing" - is a concept that is difficult to grasp, but we see this in quantum mechanics with particles popping in and out of existence at seemingly random. We see many quirky things at a quantum level that are very counter-intuitive (coming from nothing).

When you shoot a single photon particle through a divergent path, you would expect the photon to choose a side. It doesn't. It goes through both paths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/


Not if the belief itself is to have faith. If this were a scientific or social matter I would understand that position. But it is a spiritual matter, and the only evidence you can gather on that are from your own personal experience.

That theory in no way suggests how the universe and all the matter came to be. Quantum mechanics are the result or cause of ''something''. Nothing by definition cant do ''nothing''. There isnt anything there to do anything. While it is true that from what we have seen so far matter and antimatter are created in self-cancelling amounts under fluctuation conditions, one must bear in mind that so far our observation of creating both is laughably small.

EDIT: This universe and rationality stuff is going off topic, so I'd be thankful if we would return to the original topic



dsgrue3 on 08 February 2013
Player1x3 said:


Not if the belief itself is to have faith. If this were a scientific or social matter I would understand that position. But it is a spiritual matter, and the only evidence you can gather on that are from your own personal experience.

That theory in no way suggests how the universe and all the matter came to be. Quantum mechanics are the result or cause of ''something''. Nothing by definition cant do ''nothing''. There isnt anything there to do anything. While it is true that from what we have seen so far matter and antimatter are created in self-cancelling amounts under fluctuation conditions, one must bear in mind that so far our observation of creating both is laughably small.

EDIT: This universe and rationality stuff is going off topic, so I'd be thankful if we would return to the original topic

Well, if you are only considering God spiritually (mind and not tangible) then there isn't anything to discuss as reality itself is subjective and each person's experience is unique in that regard. 

We have discovered the higgs boson at this point, so stating that matter and anti-matter are created in self-cancelling amounts is not accurate at all. They simply are not created in self-cancelling amounts, matter wins out which is why we exist at all.

Your concept that nothing can't do anything is quite unfounded. We have no real world examples of true nothingness, and I would conclude it is the exact opposite - it is boundless freedom, limitless, unheeded by laws, rules, space, restrictions.  

I don't know what the original topic is anymore, but if it's gay marriage and religion does it really need to be discussed? Surely no religious person can come in here and rationally argue against gay marriage.



Jay520 on 08 February 2013

Some people need to understand what atheism is 

Atheism/theism is completely different from being agnostic/gnostic. Atheism and theism deals with what a person believes.Agnosticism deals with what a person knows (or at least what s/he think he knows). If you believe in God, then you are a theist. If you don't, then you are an atheist (which doesn't necessarily mean you believe God doesn't exist). If you believe you know whether God exist or doesn't exist, then you are gnostic. If you believe it's impossible to know, then you are agnostic.

Agnosticism isn't some middle ground be atheism and theism. Agnosticism is compatible with both atheism and theism. With that said, there are four categories that a person can fall into:

  • Gnostic Theist - A person who thinks there is enough information to know that at least one deity exists.
  • Agnostic Theist - A person who believes that at least one deity exists, but accepts that thre isn't enough information to know.
  • Agnostic Atheist - A person who does not believe in a deity, but accepts that there isn't enough information to know.
  • Explicit Atheist - A person who believes in the inexistance of a deity, but accepts that there isn't enough information to know.
  • Gnostic Atheist - A person who thinks there is enough information to know that no deity exists (This group is composed solely of explicit atheists). 

Also, there's two types of atheists. One, those who explicitly assert that no deity exist. And then there's everyone else, those who simply do not believe in a God. 

To describe all atheists, the only definition acceptable is "those who lack a belief in a deity". Once you start referring to people who explicitly believe in the lack of a deity, then you're talking about a specific group of atheists who DO NOT represent all atheists. 

I may not change what you think atheism is, but at least you now know that all people who consider themselves atheists DO NOT believe God doesn't exist. At least now you know that a person who says "I'm an atheist" doesn't necessarily believed what you once though s/he believed. If you continue to debate on what atheism means, then we should stop using the term altogether.


Cheebee on 08 February 2013

Oh dear, another one of these threads? How many have we had on here now, anyway? No-one's ever going to agree with anyone else on this matter... -_-'



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