Does Nintendo suck at marketing its older-teen blockbusters? | |||
| Yes | 72 | 75.00% | |
| No | 24 | 25.00% | |
| Total: | 96 | ||
Nintendo marketing sucks since Cammie left.
Proud to be the first cool Nintendo fan ever
Number ONE Zelda fan in the Universe
Prediction: No Zelda HD for Wii U, quietly moved to the succesor
Predictions for Nintendo NX and Mobile
| RolStoppable said:
1) Yes, you acknowledged it and then went on to push the idea of your thread further. I called it dismissal, because the thread should have ended back then. 2) I doubt EA is thriving. They have posted losses in almost every year in the seventh generation and had massive layoffs as well as several studio closures. Ubisoft has admitted that games like Just Dance help them to continue to make games for the older teen crowd, because their games for that crowd alone can't sustain their business. Activision is about the only company that is thriving in today's market, everybody else is struggling. 3) It is common knowledge that the PS3 has not made back all the billions Sony lost on it. It's no wonder that all of our discussions get so longwinded when you aren't aware of basic things like this. Ask kowenicki or someone else who has links to Sony's financials readily available, if you don't want to believe me. The PS2 was viable, but what you are completely ignoring is that development costs have notably increased since then and they will once again increase in the eighth generation. The older teen crowd is no longer viable, because their demands are too high and their numbers are too low. |
1) No, because though I agreed that it was a success, it wasn't for the reasons mentioned in OP, and that matters because it yields different results over the console's support by that segment we're talking about. So it doesn't end the thread, and is not a solid example.
2) We don't know why those studios are hurting... it could be due to projects that were not viable. But you can be certain that Assassin's creed, Halo and Fifa aren't the reasons these companies are struggling! That's my point. And I said to bananaking earlier (if YOU have been following), that with just one or two posterboys even, the strategy is secured.
3) You said for the 6 years since launch, YOU were incorrect (look at the graph you posted yourself). So blame yourself, honestly. Also, I explained already that the PS3 was the WRONG approach to the same strategy. We both agree they did wrong, you're just using it as support that my idea is incorrect, when I'm using it to say Sony did the job poorly, the PS2 is proof that it is possible from a HW standpoint.
Your last point touches the SW standpoint, and yes, that's something we both agree on. That's why I'm sticking to my 1-2 posterboy approach, and want to move on to, if Nintendo WERE to do that, if they actually could. My thought is no. My recommendation? HIRE CONSULTANTS and get serious about it.
| RolStoppable said:
1) Mhm. 2) You are completely ignoring that these companies are struggling because of their failures with other older teen crowd games like various Tom Clancy games for Ubisoft and The Saboteur and Mirror's Edge (among others) for EA. Only counting successful games is disingenious. 3) I am seriously disappointed in you. Add up the profits of these six years, then substract the losses of these six years, what is the result? A negative number, so I was and am right. You are either getting totally desperate in this discussion or you are not qualified to have it in the first place. |
2) We finally agree.......... :(
You brought up the fact that they were struggling to make profit, and I brought up the success of Halo. This was the middle ground. Hopefully next time we'll find it sooner.
Yes, I realize there are less successful ventures that fail. My suggested strategy all along this thread was the 1-2 massive hit approach, and you rejected it by bringing up these wasted ventures. I'm annoyed at you and at myself for not resolving this sooner.
3) You said "The PS3 is still deep in the red after six years on the market.", never mentioning anything about a cummulative number. You can be dissappointed, but you know very well that I'm trying my best, so it's not my fault, again. I'm not desperately trying to prove anything else than what I believe to be the rock-solid truth. If I misunderstood, it was not disingenuous, I simply did not read what you meant, and that's on both of us.
| RolStoppable said:
Earlier in this thread, somebody mentioned Twilight Princess which sold more than 7m copies. You basically dismissed it. In case you haven't paid any attention (and apparently you haven't), it's mostly Western companies who got into serious financial trouble in the seventh generation. They sell more games than ever before, but somehow they manage to make not much profit off of it. Some of them even went bankrupt or are close to it. Meanwhile, Japanese companies (who largely fail to put out blockbusters like Western companies) are in a better financial state. The Xbox 360 is hovering around the break even point after seven years on the market. The PS3 is still deep in the red after six years on the market. Their software and hardware strategy went hand in hand. They wanted to appeal to the older teen crowd above everything else, so they made very powerful consoles. Neither company could afford to make more moderate hardware, because it would have resulted in dismissal by the older teen crowd. There's no money to gain here for Nintendo. In order to compete they would need to be willing to lose billions upfront in hopes to eventually make it back; and like Microsoft's and Sony's financials have shown, even success in appealing to the older teen crowd doesn't yield any notable profits or even profits at all. |
I have no idea what you're talking about with only Western developers and publishers having financial trouble. The Japanese video-game industry has been reeling for awhile now. Some great developers have shuttered their doors or switched to mobile, especially the latter. Japanese publishers have seen huge losses. Nintendo is getting Bayonetta 2, after all, because SEGA is in such bad shape. Developers are coming out of the woodwork to say that the Japanese industry needs to improve or its going to be in serious trouble.
Your generalizations about older gamers are also wrong and honestly sound kind of spiteful. Sony lost money on the PS3 mainly because they pushed Blu-Ray and the Cell processor. They could have made a traditional machine with plenty of kick for much less. The idea that older gamers won't play on anything unless it's a behemoth is absolutely wrong. It's like denying the PS1 and PS2 ever happened. The appeal isn't the hardware, it's the software. It's the games, pure and simple.
Nintendo actually knows this, even if you don't. That's why Zombie U exists. That's why they have Bayonetta 2. They want that demographic. Given what Nintendo has said and done, that goes without question no matter how much you want to deny it.
The question here, in this thread, is more about why Nintendo is depending on third parties for a core title aimed at older gamers rather than developing their own or purchasing a studio for that purpose. They absolutely could, and with their ability to invest, they could have something on the order of Gears or Uncharted without question, or at least a Tomb Raider.
The suggestion that older gamers won't purchase a Nintendo console because it's for kids is also nonsense. At least, Nintendo is now trying to prove that it's nonsense. Gamers go where the games that they like are; if Nintendo has them then they'll go to Nintendo. Tons of older gamers bought a Wii and only regretted it because the selection of mature games let them down. You're blaming the consumers, which is not a sensible position in business. If there are image problems then you work to change or expand that image, you don't sit there and whine about your customers being wrong.
No one is saying that Nintendo should stop doing what they're doing, they're just suggesting that they broaden their focus to include a demographic that they've let slip away. Like it or not, that's Nintendo's failing, not the consumer's for having tastes that have changed or expanded as they've gotten older, and Nintendo knows it.
it's a petty that it does not appeal to the mayoralty. I think it's too hardcore for most gamers!
I agree with KylieDog which is weird!
| R.I.P Mr Iwata :'( | ||
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I think the type of gamers that would have wanted Metroid Prime 3 spent most of their time playing on X360 or PS3.
They dont feel the need to buy a Wii just to play one game.
The same way people don't feel a need to buy a PS-Vita to play the 1-2 games of slight interest to them. Very few gamers out there are multi-plat minded where they get the hardware and trust that good games will come and then get only the good games (regardless of platform).
I use the following gaming platforms
I also have that Ouya thing on reserve by being one of the Kickstarter backers even though I have no idea what game I will play on it... but I know that it will have at least a few stand out games.
| RolStoppable said:
1) Developers (i.e. the creative heads) are often not interested in business. Those who say that Japan has fallen behind and needs to step to its game up (whether they are American, European or Japanese developers), are talking in terms of sales numbers and relevance, not bottom line. I am fully aware that not everything in Japan is rosy either, but overall they are in better shape than the West despite selling fewer copies of their games. 2) My generalisations aren't wrong, but they are indeed spiteful. That's because of the general reaction of these gamers in response to Wii U's processing power as well as the meltdowns that were caused by the Bayonetta 2 announcement. 3) It's clear that Nintendo wants this demographic, but that doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do. Especially because their business has been in free fall ever since they opted to change their strategy from what made the Wii and DS successful in the first place. 4) All Nintendo needs to do is to get the third party multiplatform games on their console. As it stands, approximately 98% of the big budget games that third parties make appeal to the older teen crowd. There's really no point for Nintendo to majorly invest in additional projects for this demographic, especially when every other segment of the market is widely underserved. Funding a game like Bayonetta 2 every now and then is more than sufficient, if the third party multiplatform games are there; and if the multiplatform games are missing, then no amount of Nintendo developed older teen crowd games are going to make up the difference. 5) Regarding the people who actually bought a Wii, I blame third parties for the disappointment that was caused among gamers. We hear it all the time that third parties cannot compete with Nintendo on their own platform. Making M-rated games was their chance, because Nintendo doesn't make them, so third parties would have had this demographic all to themselves. But third parties failed to make quality games and market their games on the Wii. 6) See point 4. I am sick of the notion that the older teen crowd must get so much attention when it already gets so much attention. If they aren't happy about what Nintendo does, it's no biggie, because there are two other console manufacturers that cater to them, plus PC gaming. But there's no alternative to what Nintendo does. |
I'm not trying to flame you at all, but honestly, a lot of what you say sounds emotional rather than practical. You're assigning responsibility for Nintendo's situation to everyone but Nintendo, which just makes no real-world sense. They are responsible for themselves. Third party developers cannot be blamed for concentrating resources where they could produce games for two consoles rather than one. That's just smart management. Consumers cannot be blamed for their taste in gaming. With regards to what they want, consumers are ALWAYS right. That's one of the golden rules of business.
I used to own a video rental store. In the first year, I ordered a lot of quality films: Golden Globe winners, film festival winners, subtitled films, and indie films that won multiple awards--all of which rented like crap. 80% lost money per copy. In my second year, I concetrated on direct-to-video releases by Segal, Van Damme, and anything with a rap star in it. I couldn't keep those in stock. The point is, the customers might have had horrible taste, but from a business standpoint I was the one who made the mistake. That was my responsibility and I failed to understand my market.
I'm also not sure why you keep saying "older teens" because that's only part of who we're talking about. It's also people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, people who drifted away from Nintendo after the SNES.
Look, the essence of my argument is pretty simple. Nintendo consoles are almost always the best for kids and families. They START OUT with most of the people who become gamers already in their grasp. From a business standpoint, that's awesome. But then people get older and their tastes begin to vary. Some of them like what Nintendo does so they stay. Some of them want something else and they realize that Nintendo seems to have little interest in keeping them so they jump ship. There is no reason that has to be the case.
Nintendo has always made people chose which one they want, which means Nintendo is responsible for letting those people go. They can't blame that on third parties. Other publishers and developers are not responsible for Nintendo's business. If Nintendo wants third parties then they're going to have to convince them that it would be in their best interest to stay. If they want to keep their customers from jumping then its up to them to take action to keep them. No one else is responsible for Nintendo except Nintendo.
Personally, I see no reason why Nintendo can't produce two or three mature rated games. Not only would it let the core customer know that they are serious about winning back that demographic but it would also let third parties know that Nintendo has an eco-system that would support mature games. It would be a win-win situation.
Nintendo has stated multiple times that certain style of games are not there forte and M rated is one of them. It's the reason why games like Kid Icarus, perfect dark and Bayonetta are outsourced/funded rather than self developed.
happydolphin said:
You win bro. But I meant marketing. Marketing is the process of communicating the value of a product or service to customers. Key concepts: Product marketing, Pricing, Distribution, Service Retail, Brand management, Account-based marketing, Ethics Effectiveness, Research, Segmentation, Strategy, Activation, Management Dominance, Marketing operations Nintendo fails on almost all fronts for their older-teen blockbusters. And @underlined. OP already mentioned I was talking about reaching an audience they don't have (eg xbox fans). If MS could snag PS fans, I don't see why couldn't Nintendo snag xbox or ps fans. You should golfclap yourself, honestly, because if you were less arrogant, I wouldn't react to you that way |
You still dont understand. You dont know what segmentation is, you dont know know the logic behind producing and aiming a product at a market.
Marketing isnt something you can define that easily. I dont know where you found that definition, but it is certainly very incomplete.
Dr. Philip Kotler defines marketing as “the science and art of exploring, creating, and delivering value to satisfy the needs of a target market at a profit. Marketing identifies unfulfilled needs and desires. It defines, measures and quantifies the size of the identified market and the profit potential. It pinpoints which segments the company is capable of serving best and it designs and promotes the appropriate products and services.”
Do you understand now? Can we agree that the "mature"games Nintendo makes are good? If they are good it means they are well marketed on the product side. I dont know wich target they are actually aiming for, but if they expect bigger sales it can only be because the news of the game didnt reach all the customers it should. This is either because the product wasnt good enough for the needs it was trying to satisfy, wich i guess isnt the case, or they failed to deliver the message to the target it was aimed at. Delivering the message is the job of Advertisement. What you are saying is that everything is wrong including the products, the price, the placement, when in fact the problem is just the communication. You are saying everything is wrong, when in fact only 1/4 is. That is hardly what i consider accurate.
Choose between these what you think is wrong:
Price
Product
Placement
Promotion
Tell me what you think is wrong from those, because when you say the Marketing is wrong you are saying they are all wrong. Also, drop the arrogance, i have legitimacy to tell you what these things are since i do have a degree on it. I am teaching you here and you are squabling at me. I can just leave you in ignorance if you'd rather.
RolStoppable said:
You must have glanced over point 3. Also, third parties are responsible for the games they make. If they produce crap, then it's only right to blame them, not the console manufacturer. It's ridiculous to blame Nintendo for crappy third party games instead of the companies that made said crappy games. I keep saying "older teen crowd" for the sake of this thread and its creator. Besides, there aren't too many people in their 20s, 30s or older who refuse to buy a Nintendo console due to a lack of "mature" games, so what this thread is about is indeed mostly teenagers. The main problem with teenagers is that they are easy to manipulate and believe that M-rated games are mature. Every single one of Nintendo's competitors painted Nintendo as the kiddie company, so teenagers are basically a lost cause for Nintendo until these people grow up and realize that M-rated games are usually anything but mature and return to Nintendo. Even the Nintendo 64 was viewed as a kiddie console despite housing a large number of FPS games. It's a curse that Nintendo has to live with, because it's not going to change. Spending big money on M-rated games will basically amount to throwing money down the drain. Regarding the ecosystem for "mature" games, if Call of Duty: Black Ops 2 sells 1.5-2m copies within a year (estimating 8-10m Wii Us sold during that timeframe), then it's basically established. |
Ugh. This is worthless. You generalize and stereotype just as much as those you argue against. Why can't you understand that different people have different tastes and that your particular tastes don't make you superior? Dude, honestly, you're the exact same type of person that you're complaining about.
"Until these people grow up and realize that M-rated games are usually anything but mature and return to Nintendo," is just such a short-sighted ... I can't say the word but I'm sure you know what I'm thinking. I really, really dislike this kind of elitism.
Luckily, Nintendo doesn't seem to agree with you.
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