By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Sony - Has the Cell peaked? If no, would it work for next gen? - More questions inside

The proof is in the results. If the Cell was all that it would be used in considerably more applications than it currently is. In single threaded performance and efficiency the X86 Intel CPU is king, in price/performance applications ARM is the one to beat and for high performance computing there isn't much out there which can hold a candle to GPGPU/Xenon Phi architectures.

The majority of the major optimisations developers have made are for graphics processing which is irrelevant if you attach a very strong GCN AMD GPU to the console. Once you've done that then you're going to throw away the majority of your legacy code as it simply isn't needed anymore.



Tease.

Around the Network
darkknightkryta said:

1.  It was the general flow of the discussion, not directed at you just the misinformation.

2.  Cell was designed for multi core programming.  A lot of the decisions made for Cell was directly for that (Lack of cache for the SPUs, in-order exectution).  Programming specicially for it or not does't change multi-core programming paradigm it encourages it.

3.  Cell is more powerful than most, if not all, PC processors, so yes it's still pretty powerful.  As powerful as more modern server processors?  No, not unless they do another update ontop of the PowerXCell 8i revision.  But no one is willing to invest.

4.  I was agreeing with the GPU point.

5.  I disagree, it will always be performance vs flexibility.  If flexibility was the way to go everyone would have jumped ship to Larrabee.  There will be the convergance, so you're right with that, but they're going GPU to CPU (Current video cards) vs CPU to GPU (Cell, Larrabee).

Cell is only better at certain things tho, sure it runs circles arround a traditional CPU in terms of raw flops but that doesn't really reflect all workloads. No one has really prioratised SIMD performance on x86 in a long time unless you count larrabee/Xenon Phi which were never meant to be used as a CPU successor but rather GPU/coprocessor to be used in conjunction with a traditional CPU.

The CELL's asymetric CPU design seems to be dead, tho I suppose including a GPU on the same die as the CPU could be seen as a successor to that design.  I don't see anyone using 2 different types of CPU cores in the same die tho, that design did seem to be a dead end or at least one that IBM didn't think was worth pursuing.

So far in terms of heterogeneous compute GPU bassed design does seem to be winning the war but they are still a very far away from the point where you could do away with traditional CPU cores in a console let alone a PC. CPUs aren't replacing dedicated GPU any time soon ether, Intel and AMD have instead gone for the aproach of just including a GPU on the same die (with the option of an addon card) rather than try to do graphics on CPU cores. Maybe in 10 years we will see a new architecture that really does offer the ultimate balance of flexibility and performance that lets it supersede the current CPU+GPU paradime for games, but not this generation. 



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

Squilliam said:
The proof is in the results. If the Cell was all that it would be used in considerably more applications than it currently is. In single threaded performance and efficiency the X86 Intel CPU is king, in price/performance applications ARM is the one to beat and for high performance computing there isn't much out there which can hold a candle to GPGPU/Xenon Phi architectures.

The majority of the major optimisations developers have made are for graphics processing which is irrelevant if you attach a very strong GCN AMD GPU to the console. Once you've done that then you're going to throw away the majority of your legacy code as it simply isn't needed anymore.

If proof is in the results, why isn't the WiiU an X86 item? Why do you bring in Xenon Phi (>$1500 a piece) or high-end GPUs (>$150 currently) stuff into the discussion? None of that you will ever see in a console. A console has a $199 target, so discussing $2000 accelerators and $500 graphic cards is a moot point, consoles are never going to compete on high-end PC graphic levels. The simple fact is that a console maker will always target the $25 CPU and $25 GPU. A 3PPU/6SPU enhanced 32nm cell would have fit the bill in all respects for PS4, and would have had relatively low R&D costs attached to it. It is completely irrelevant whether the whole world embraces cell or not (again, see WiiU), the only relevance is that it fits the needs of a PS4.

Your point of (ab)using the SPUs for graphics processing is of course right, but as things stand now, both MS and Sony will discard 99% of their legacy code anyways, as they go AMD if latest rumours are to be believed.



zarx said:
Wlakiz said:


1. Again, you are mistaking flaw for performance/Convience trade off. IBM didn't 'forget' to add in branch prediction or OOE, they designed the SPE to have a sepcific purpose which is to do FP calculation fast. Their design choice made it possible for SPEs to complement the GPU's performance which allowed developers to push the graphics beyond the GPU's specs. Thanks to Cell's 8 years of production, most if not all developers have dedicated compilers and game engines designed to make optimization for them.  If a developer 5 years down the road have to start 'hand optimizing' their code to get their desired performance, then you just effectively created a cpu with useless/bloated features.

2. Your point is going off on a tangent. Most developers like to use their own engine to avoid paying licence fee and they have free control on what the engine does. That is why, even tho Unreal 3 Engine was avialible, only a select games used it. Developers already have engines built from last 8 years of PS3 development, continue using Cell will mean a much lower cost for the 'next gen'. 

3. Wrong, first, IBM already developed a scaled up version of Cell called PowerXCell 8i back in 08 that does 102 GFlops, Highest end of Core i7 Extreme edition is only at 90 Gflop and it consumes twice as much power. Second, the next gen is 22nm and how many chips are in 22nm? Unless they started devloping in parallel with Ivy bridge and Power8 chips, most likely start at 32nm for the next gen and go down to 22nm as they age.

4. Did you pull that $1.5b from your ass too? It takes 8-10years to create a new architecture from scratch, but its cheap to create scaled ones.. just look at corei7, it came out first then they scaled it down to make it affordable and that didn't take long.

 As someone who did CUDA programming, I can tell you that you know nothing about GPGPU. Cell IS a hybrid of GPU and a conventional CPU. In fact, the way you copy memory from the GPU cache for your 'task' is almost the exact way you would do it in Cell. 


1. It may have been a deliberate choice by Sony and IBM for most developers it still caused problems and made their lives harder. With both MS and Sony going x86 it will make multiplatform des lives much easier, and with budgets as high as they are that is a good thing.

2. there are hundreds of games built on UE3, and as high end engines get ever more powerful licensed engines will become even more wide spread. Most publishers are building engines that will be used company wide like Frostbyte, MT Framework, Anvil, Luminous, Fox etc the days of making an engine for one game are at an end. And as I said outside of Sony first party modern engines are designed on modern x86 or Xenon, CELL really has no advantage in the regard they will still need to update compilers and codebase for a next gen CELL.

3. AMD (well Global Foundries) aren't doing 22nm they are going from 28nm to 20nm. TSMC is going 28nm-20nm as well. Only Intel has 22nm volume production that would be ready in time for next gen and they won't be used. 

 

4. R&D spend 


1. Learning to ride a bike is hard, but once you do, it's an efficent form of transportation. My point still stands that any difficulty in 'learning' or 'using' cell is alrady mitigated by the 8 years of experience that developers have.

2. 'High end engines' don't get more powerful, they just demand more resources and processing power. Since you can't upgrade consoles with more memory or better GPU, your 'next gen x86' Engines will just get out-dated after a year or two and you have no way to use the newer ones. You should not lump PC life-cycles with Console ones. 

3. I don't know where you're getting that information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices

"AMD also formed a strategic partnership with IBM, under which AMD gained silicon on insulator (SOI) manufacturing technology, and detailed advice on 90 nm implementation. AMD announced that the partnership would extend to 2011 for 32 nm and 22 nm fabrication-related technologies."

22nm is next step on ITRS

4. Theres no indication that R&D for an updated Cell woudl cost Sony '1.5b' if that is what you're implying, considering IBM already made an updated one just 4 years ago.



Wlakiz said:

1. Learning to ride a bike is hard, but once you do, it's an efficent form of transportation. My point still stands that any difficulty in 'learning' or 'using' cell is alrady mitigated by the 8 years of experience that developers have.

2. 'High end engines' don't get more powerful, they just demand more resources and processing power. Since you can't upgrade consoles with more memory or better GPU, your 'next gen x86' Engines will just get out-dated after a year or two and you have no way to use the newer ones. You should not lump PC life-cycles with Console ones. 

3. I don't know where you're getting that information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Micro_Devices

"AMD also formed a strategic partnership with IBM, under which AMD gained silicon on insulator (SOI) manufacturing technology, and detailed advice on 90 nm implementation. AMD announced that the partnership would extend to 2011 for 32 nm and 22 nm fabrication-related technologies."

22nm is next step on ITRS

4. Theres no indication that R&D for an updated Cell woudl cost Sony '1.5b' if that is what you're implying, considering IBM already made an updated one just 4 years ago.

Engines get more complex as the hadware and games get more complex, building an engine that offers all the features that developers need and that take advantage of all the hardware features will be far more complex to build next gen. Which is why most next gen engines are now being built on high end PC because these engines now take multiple years to create by themselves. All engines get constantly upgraded but the core platform will be ported accoss, UE4, Cryengine 3, Luminous, Forstbyte 2 etc etc is going to be what next gen games are built on, and they will be optomised for whatever hardware is in the final hardware. I don't see what changing PC hardware has to do with being able to port across the engines that everyone is designing today to get ready for next gen console hardware. 

AMD APUs are all moving to 28nm next year, they are sticking to 32nm on high end FX CPUs which is not what will be in PS4. 

 

I'm not saying it would cost them $1.5b I am saying that it won't be as cheap as you seem to think it would be. They are not going to use a server CPU in the PS4.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

Around the Network

You know, I think some of you guys are making this too complicated. If you simply look at it from a business perspective, then you'd understand that there is no reason to revisit the Cell and spend as much on R&D since you can already get something that's proven to work rather than having to go back and tweak all the internal workings of the Cell again. You'd need to make quiet a few changes in the Cell to make it relevant for modern GPUs, why bother with that when somebody else already has a solution? It's not like Sony has that much money ya know?



zarx said:

Cell is only better at certain things tho, sure it runs circles arround a traditional CPU in terms of raw flops but that doesn't really reflect all workloads. No one has really prioratised SIMD performance on x86 in a long time unless you count larrabee/Xenon Phi which were never meant to be used as a CPU successor but rather GPU/coprocessor to be used in conjunction with a traditional CPU.

The CELL's asymetric CPU design seems to be dead, tho I suppose including a GPU on the same die as the CPU could be seen as a successor to that design.  I don't see anyone using 2 different types of CPU cores in the same die tho, that design did seem to be a dead end or at least one that IBM didn't think was worth pursuing.

So far in terms of heterogeneous compute GPU bassed design does seem to be winning the war but they are still a very far away from the point where you could do away with traditional CPU cores in a console let alone a PC. CPUs aren't replacing dedicated GPU any time soon ether, Intel and AMD have instead gone for the aproach of just including a GPU on the same die (with the option of an addon card) rather than try to do graphics on CPU cores. Maybe in 10 years we will see a new architecture that really does offer the ultimate balance of flexibility and performance that lets it supersede the current CPU+GPU paradime for games, but not this generation. 

The better things are the things that slow processors down. I mean, not like typing a word document is gonna kill your processor or browsing a webpage.  Only thing it's more poor in that would matter is A.I.  but they had to sacrifice branching to get the parallel processing working.  Asymetric design will never be dead, GPUs are an example of this (Not even talking about APUs).  And like I said GPUs and CPUs are converging, never said it would be anytime soon.



drkohler said:
Squilliam said:
The proof is in the results. If the Cell was all that it would be used in considerably more applications than it currently is. In single threaded performance and efficiency the X86 Intel CPU is king, in price/performance applications ARM is the one to beat and for high performance computing there isn't much out there which can hold a candle to GPGPU/Xenon Phi architectures.

The majority of the major optimisations developers have made are for graphics processing which is irrelevant if you attach a very strong GCN AMD GPU to the console. Once you've done that then you're going to throw away the majority of your legacy code as it simply isn't needed anymore.

If proof is in the results, why isn't the WiiU an X86 item? Why do you bring in Xenon Phi (>$1500 a piece) or high-end GPUs (>$150 currently) stuff into the discussion? None of that you will ever see in a console. A console has a $199 target, so discussing $2000 accelerators and $500 graphic cards is a moot point, consoles are never going to compete on high-end PC graphic levels. The simple fact is that a console maker will always target the $25 CPU and $25 GPU. A 3PPU/6SPU enhanced 32nm cell would have fit the bill in all respects for PS4, and would have had relatively low R&D costs attached to it. It is completely irrelevant whether the whole world embraces cell or not (again, see WiiU), the only relevance is that it fits the needs of a PS4.

Your point of (ab)using the SPUs for graphics processing is of course right, but as things stand now, both MS and Sony will discard 99% of their legacy code anyways, as they go AMD if latest rumours are to be believed.

Why isn't the Wii U X86? Quite likely because they want backwards compatibility with the Wii.

Why did I bring up other architectures? As an example of course. What's the point in including a CPU which is obsoleted by the GPU? The majority of effort this generation has been to use the Cell processor for graphics rendering because graphics rendering requires the fewest lines of code and that was required in order to bring the console versions to parity with the Xbox 360. If you have a next generation GPU you don't need the Cell as it is far more efficient/effective as a GPU than the Cell processor is and the Cell processor is utter crap for general purpose loads which would be better suited to run on an X86 CPU OR power PC architecture.

All of the C coded for the engines used today will recompile just fine for X86 because afterall developers have been supporting the PC throughout this entire generation of consoles so I can't anticipate them having problems.



Tease.

dahuman said:

You know, I think some of you guys are making this too complicated. If you simply look at it from a business perspective, then you'd understand that there is no reason to revisit the Cell and spend as much on R&D since you can already get something that's proven to work rather than having to go back and tweak all the internal workings of the Cell again. You'd need to make quiet a few changes in the Cell to make it relevant for modern GPUs, why bother with that when somebody else already has a solution? It's not like Sony has that much money ya know?

I tried to make this point earlier. A custom designed Cell processor that developers dislike and will cost Sony lots of money to research versus a cheaper, slightly modified off the shelf CPU/APU + GPU that virtually all developers understand, has numerous tools ready to use and will do a comparable job.

Unless they plan to use a version of the Cell in all their hardware (unlikely considering the original Cell only made it into the PS3), then from a business perspective, the Cell processor is redundant.



JoeTheBro said:
The original plan was for the PS3 to just have two cells and no gpu. In a last ditch effort to bring down costs they went with the current setup which causes bottlenecks. Sony for a PS4 could just make a quad cell beast but multiplat games just like this generation would look horrible in comparison for the first couple years. Only 1st party games would be able to scream next gen.


Source?

My computer knowledge of GPUs and rendering tell me that's bull.