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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Which of the big three consoles manufactures put the most big name devs out of business this gen?

Barozi on 21 October 2012
lilbroex said:
Barozi said:

and I responded to that as well. The quote was different to what you said.


How was it diferent?


You said WiiU is cheaper to develop for than PS3/360.
The quote only said that the WiiU is technically one of the easier platforms to develop for. And they only make that comment because they ported a game for WiiU. They didn't even build something from the ground up for it.

That's in no way the same. The 360 got a lot of PC ports because it the architecture was so similar that it was very easy to do even without much experience with console games. Yet your main point is that PS3 and 360 caused many studios to close. That's contradicting. WiiU will cause the same doom to dev studios.



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lilbroex on 21 October 2012
Hynad said:

The Wii U won't be any cheaper to develop for thaa ayy other platform. People often think that because coding for a system is simple, that it is all it takes to lower the costs.

Forgetting about designers, 3D render staff, Cinematic sequences (CG or not), etc...

It all depends on the nature of the project. Not the platform it's on.


I call bollocks, once again. The complexity of the hardware makes a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE difference. Programming for the Xenon and programming for the Cell are miles apart. Hardware completely make prices skyrocket. Having to budget, compress and trim ups costs a lot. Having to deal with RAM limitation ups cost.

As a programmer who has done assembly programming, I know this well.



killerzX on 21 October 2012
lilbroex said:
killerzX said:
lilbroex said:
Kresnik said:
lilbroex said:

You are truncating the facts. I call foul. I said 150-300k for the average game.

Top quality developments(with the few there were) gnerally needed around 500k.


You didn't actually.  In fact, you said exactly the opposite.  Go check your post again.

 

"For a A+ quality games on the PS3, the developement costs are so high that a million seller isn't even enough to break even.

On the other hand, dev costs on the Wii were so low that even you only needed to 150-300k sells to make a profit."

 

Pretty sure that's a comparison of A+ quality games on PS3 to A+ quality games on Wii, since you didn't mention anywhere that you were talking about 'average' games on Wii.  And if you were, then why on earth would you make that comparison?  Why not compare like-for-like?  (i.e. average game on Wii to average game on PS3)

But that's okay.  Don't just accept by apology and move on, feel free to just start yet another argument.

You lost me. How did I say the oppostie?

A+ games on the PS3 cost upwards of 50 million(games like GT4, Uncharted 2, Heavy Rain)

the Naughty Dog said uncharted 1-2 cost $20 million to make. Gears of war 1 and 2 cost something like $10-$20 million to make.

Heavy rain, was a very small budget game, made by a very small studio, with not much of a track record. it was only expected to sell around 500k. so it probably cost less than $10 million to make.

GT4? do you mean GTA4 or GT5?. GTA IV cost like $100 million to make. incredible expensive, and it sold a ton, like 30 million plus lots of DLC.. GT5 cost $60 million to make also extremely expensive. but it has sold over 13 million (GT5+ GT5 prologue), and a couple million DLCs. so also very profitable.

Sources

I find it hard to believe that they said they both cost the same amount given how different they were in design and scale.

I didn't know Gears of War was made for the PS3.

Gears 1 and 2: $10-12 million: http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/27009224

Uncharted 1 and 2: $20 million: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/uncharted-sequel-costing-usd-20-million

Gran Turismo 5: $60 million: http://www.joystiq.com/2009/11/05/gran-turismo-5-cost-roughly-60-million-to-develop/

Grand Theft Auto: $100 million: http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Most_expensive_video_games

 

i posted Gears of War to show that blockbuster, high production value games, can be made for cheap. Uncharted is another excellent example. usually game with that high of production value would cost upwards of $50 million, but it can be made for less than half.

it just goes to show cost of development is highly dependent on the studio. if they are good and game make games in a relative short amount of time, and can manage money wisely, there is no reason why 1 million in sales shouldnt net them a good bit of profit.



Hynad on 21 October 2012
lilbroex said:
Hynad said:

The Wii U won't be any cheaper to develop for thaa ayy other platform. People often think that because coding for a system is simple, that it is all it takes to lower the costs.

Forgetting about designers, 3D render staff, Cinematic sequences (CG or not), etc...

It all depends on the nature of the project. Not the platform it's on.


I call bollocks, once again. The complexity of the hardware makes a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE difference. Programming for the Xenon and programming for the Cell are miles apart. Hardware completely make prices skyrocket. Having to budget and trim ups costs a lot.

As a programmer who has done assembly programming, I know this well.

Oh really, you're a programmer.  Then you know that it's when you get aquainted with the hardware that it's more time consuming, hence costing more.  After 6 years, you don't get aquainted with it anymore, unless you're a really crappy programmer. So the cost argument is a moot one.



killerzX on 21 October 2012
Kresnik said:
lilbroex said:
killerzX said:

the Naughty Dog said uncharted 1-2 cost $20 million to make. Gears of war 1 and 2 cost something like $10-$20 million to make.

Heavy rain, was a very small budget game, made by a very small studio, with not much of a track record. it was only expected to sell around 500k. so it probably cost less than $10 million to make.

GT4? do you mean GTA4 or GT5?. GTA IV cost like $100 million to make. incredible expensive, and it sold a ton, like 30 million plus lots of DLC.. GT5 cost $60 million to make also extremely expensive. but it has sold over 13 million (GT5+ GT5 prologue), and a couple million DLCs. so also very profitable.

Sources

I find it hard to believe that they said they both cost the same amount given how different they were in design and scale.

I didn't know Gears of War was made for the PS3.


Uncharted 2 $20 million - http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/uncharted-sequel-costing-usd-20-million

Gears of War $10 million - http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/gears_of_war/news/gears_of_war_has_cost_10_million_to_produce.html

Heavy Rain was expected to sell 200-300k copies - http://www.edge-online.com/news/heavy-rain-clears-one-million-sales/

Grand Theft Auto 4 budget 'estimated' $100 million - http://www.shacknews.com/article/52464/gta-4s-production-budget-estimated

Gran Turismo 5 budget $60 million - http://uk.gamespot.com/news/gran-turismo-5-sporting-60-million-budget-6239328

Surprisingly, this guy was almost spot on with nearly all of his figures.

man i have a good memory. 

i knew i was smart. teehee



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Jay520 on 21 October 2012
lilbroex said:
Jay520 said:
lilbroex said:


You are mistaken. The Wii had many big name devs and their games sold well for the most part.

Only two companies I think of went out of business developing for the NIntendo this gen. The company that made Trace Memory/Hotel Dusk and the company that made Cursed Moutain.

I can't remember the devs names, but I remember the big name games for the Wii.

Overlord Dark Legend, HOD Overkill, Madworld, The Last Story, Pandora's Tower, No More Heroes, Red Stel, Red Steel 2, Goldeneye, Arc Rise Fantasia(blegh), Umbrella Chronicles, Darkside Chronicles, Tatsunoku vs. Capcom, Shattered Memories,  Metroid Prime 3, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Other M, The Conduit(only the first one) Oboro Murasmasa, (there second better selling game ever even though they claimed that Nintendo cost them sells...) to name a few


Any of those games that exceeded 500k made a profit. Well, maybe expect RS2.


That doesn't negate my point at all. I never said the Wii didn't get many big name developers. The Wii did get some big name devs, but the number of big name Wii developers is infinitesimally low compared to the number of big name HD developers. By virtue of that fact alone, the chances of the Wii having more big name developers close is virtually impossible.


"There are so little Wii "big name" developers,"

You certainly had me fooled then. They had a lot. There were only a few big name developed who "didn't" make games for the Wii that weren't exsclusive devs and the Wii had its own around the same number of exslusive devs itself.



For the bolded, context is key.

As for the second part... Really? Are you saying that the Wii had close to the amount of big name developers as the HD consoles? if you truly believe that, then I have nothing more to say.

curl-6 on 21 October 2012
M.U.G.E.N said:

umm no if they made good games gamers would buy them

Bollocks, gamers ignore good games all the time just because they're a new IP, or a genre that's not hot at the time, or because they'd just rather spend their money on the latest FIFA roster upda- err, game.

Good games flop and bad games sell brilliantly all the time.



killerzX on 21 October 2012
Kresnik said:
lilbroex said:

Indeed, expcially when you take into account that I was focusing specifically on Sony, which is why I asked when was Gear of War released for the PS3.

I remember specifically stating that "Sony" had the highest dev cost. I know that 360 cost was lower, but its still 2-3X high as the Wii on average.


Sure, the comparison between Gears & Uncharted is probably a good one for something like that.  But then there's the dev cost for something like Heavy Rain.  That throws a real spanner in the works when you consider it was only predicted to sell 200-300k copies.  Surely they'd have to prove their financials to someone and couldn't just blow a load of money on something with such low expectations?

Without any concrete figures though, we're just gonna go around in circles.  I guess for the time being Gears v Uncharted is the best proof.

yeah, could you believe quantic dream going to sony and saying, we want you to finance a $50+ million game, and we expect to sell around 200-300k copies.

Sony: "i guess we will have to charge $300 per copy if we want to make profit. "

 

in all likelyhood it probably cost under $4 million to make, based on projected sales, and them probably wanting to make money.



M.U.G.E.N on 21 October 2012
curl-6 said:
M.U.G.E.N said:

umm no if they made good games gamers would buy them

Bollocks, gamers ignore good games all the time just because they're a new IP, or a genre that's not hot at the time, or because they'd just rather spend their money on the latest FIFA roster upda- err, game.

Good games flop and bad games sell brilliantly all the time.


It's a combination of a lot of things. But a lot of these companies went down cuz they kept making bad games, simple as that. Add the other factors I mentioned and you have your answer. Vision, management of resources and end result ARE the real reasons. 



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lilbroex on 21 October 2012
Jay520 said:
lilbroex said:
Jay520 said:
lilbroex said:


You are mistaken. The Wii had many big name devs and their games sold well for the most part.

Only two companies I think of went out of business developing for the NIntendo this gen. The company that made Trace Memory/Hotel Dusk and the company that made Cursed Moutain.

I can't remember the devs names, but I remember the big name games for the Wii.

Overlord Dark Legend, HOD Overkill, Madworld, The Last Story, Pandora's Tower, No More Heroes, Red Stel, Red Steel 2, Goldeneye, Arc Rise Fantasia(blegh), Umbrella Chronicles, Darkside Chronicles, Tatsunoku vs. Capcom, Shattered Memories,  Metroid Prime 3, Donkey Kong Country Returns, Other M, The Conduit(only the first one) Oboro Murasmasa, (there second better selling game ever even though they claimed that Nintendo cost them sells...) to name a few


Any of those games that exceeded 500k made a profit. Well, maybe expect RS2.


That doesn't negate my point at all. I never said the Wii didn't get many big name developers. The Wii did get some big name devs, but the number of big name Wii developers is infinitesimally low compared to the number of big name HD developers. By virtue of that fact alone, the chances of the Wii having more big name developers close is virtually impossible.


"There are so little Wii "big name" developers,"

You certainly had me fooled then. They had a lot. There were only a few big name developed who "didn't" make games for the Wii that weren't exsclusive devs and the Wii had its own around the same number of exslusive devs itself.


For the bolded, context is key.

As for the second part... Really? Are you saying that the Wii had close to the amount of big name developers as the HD consoles? if you truly believe that, then I have nothing more to say.

The have:

High Voltage Software,

Retro Stuidos,

Monolith Soft, 

the Fatal Frame dev(can't remember their name),

AlphaDream
Camelot Software Planning
Jupiter Corp.
Monster Games
Next Level Games
Paon
Skip Ltd.
Sora Ltd. - Returning
Noise
N-Space
Game Freak
Ambrella
Kuju Entertainment
Creatures Inc.
The Pokémon Company
Genius Sonority
Treasure

Thems just a few. Yup.