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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Nintendo should copy Sony

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Nintendo should

be more like Sony in gene... 35 19.55%
 
have at least one studio like Team Ico. 53 29.61%
 
not bother with the segment. 91 50.84%
 
Total:179
Mr Khan said:
Sal.Paradise said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Also in response to Jay's comment

I should have added that the pursuit of technical beauty for its own sake, or the idea that games are primarily vehicles for stories (which is not to say that i believe games can't tell stories, but the story should always be a by-product of how the game is played).

Another way of interpreting my use of "art" would be developers that pursue their personal vision.

Of course, even Nintendo sometimes veers off into "art" games (see Metroid: Other M), but the results usually shock them back into doing things properly.

So your issues are with 

1.the pursuit of technical beauty for its own sake

2.the idea that games are primarily vehicles for stories 

3.developers that pursue their personal vision.

Are you implying that Sony is concerned with nothing other than these three traits, as per your original comment? I realise you said quite ambiguously "one of the few high-end developers" but this is undoubtedly a thread about Sony and Nintendo so I assume that's why you posted it in the first place. I ask this because I think it's a comment easily dismissed by looking at their first party game library. 

Also may I ask why you would have an issue with the pursuit of "technical beauty" for its own sake? Unless you have some crazy outlier philosophy regarding beauty I'd like to hear about...why would you take issue with the pursuit of creating something beautiful? 

The core issue is when developers focus on games "they" want to make, rather than games that they should make. That's the long and short of it.

Oh goodness.

When you put it like that, we couldn't think more differently. The diluted,  soul less, focus tested-to-death approach is the worst aspect of modern games to me. That's the opposite of what I want and admire in games (with rare exceptions). Man. I can't believe you think that! 



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happydolphin said:

HabinoBR. Apology accepted, post away.

Veknoid_Outcast said:

Sorry I'm late to the party on this one.

A few thoughts.

1) First of all, I think there is a big danger here of confusing descriptive terms with normative ones. Many words that video game enthusiasts and critics use to describe games -- dark, mature, epic, cinematic, surreal -- are useful in describing a video game, but not useful in assigning value.

2) Moreover, and I'm sure I'm in the minority on this, I believe video games should be moving farther away from movies, not closing in on them. Video games are a unique medium, and I think the closer the industry moves toward Hollywood, the worse it is for both.

3) That being said, the games you mentioned are of course brilliant. Ico is in my opinion the finest PS2 game, and Shadow of the Colossus is in the top 5. Nintendo should borrow from those games because they are mechanically sound, emotionally powerful, and fun to play. Not because they're darker or more sinister, or even more cinematic or surreal than Nintendo's own IPs.

4) Lastly, I think we have to but a moratorium on the "Nintendo makes games for kids" canard. Nintendo makes games for everyone. Some are good, some are bad, some are the greatest games of all time.

Veknoid_Outcast, thanks for this post.

For point 1), like I mentioned to amp, I'm not exactly sure how to describe Shadow of the Colossus. It's such an impressive game and doesn't need to hinge on flashy colors and effect to get there, as compared to say God of War or Xenoblade (as far as I understand it). I don't know how to describe the silent nature of SotC, and the awe-inspiring nature of the immensity of its world (@Ronster. You need to play this game). As such it reminds me of moments in Ocarina of Time, like for instance the spirit Temple's immense idol, or the quietness of the "meadow" in the water temple. I don't know what the word is that describes these, but it's filmatographical in nature (is that the word), yet it isn't hollywoodian. Ah, I fail at this, should've studied cinematography. :P This should help better show how I agree with your point 2). I'm also not for Hollywood myself and prefer international movies in general, or a GOOD american movie like Donnie Darko, American Beauty, Dances with Wolves and more quiet movies like that.

3) I didn't know how to word it, so whatever you see in those games that make them pinnacle, that's what Nintendo should borrow, at least in a handful of their games. They were able to do it before, they can now if they try harder or hire professionals who can help them get there. Iwata mentioned somewhere that he wanted to make deeper experiences for older ages (can't find the link). This would be the way.

4) When TP came out, Nintendo tried to make what OP asks for, but they weren't able to 100% like SotC did. For the moment they fall short. So, though the phrase may be a canard, it holds alot of truth. True, it's a generalization, but games that apply for all ages are rare. These would be Wii Sports, Endless Ocean and a few other simulator-style games. The others that are family-friendly are not for all ages, as they contain content that does not cater to the segment in OP. So bar a few exceptions that yet also don't cater to the segment in OP (Wii Sports and Endless Ocean), in general the canard holds a powerful truth: that Nintendo is not catering to the segment in OP. And in general, that means Nintendo is doing bad, as far as the segment is concerned. That's why it can't dominate its generation just yet.

I see what you're saying. And I certainly appreciate your perspective on this topic.

I guess where I disagree is the necessity to cater to the audience you described. Because I could list 30 or so games that don't meet the criteria described in the OP that are as good or better than Shadow of the Colossus or Gran Turismo, etc. Like I said earlier, cinematic qualities, darkness, and adult-oriented material are not good per se; they can be employed by designers to produce something beautiful and mesmerizing like Shadow of the Colossus, or twisted into a broken, boring experience like Duke Nukem Forever.

I only want to play good games, and I don't care if they star an Italian plumber or the god of war.



Sal.Paradise said:
Mr Khan said:

The core issue is when developers focus on games "they" want to make, rather than games that they should make. That's the long and short of it.

Oh goodness.

When you put it like that, we couldn't think more differently. The diluted,  soul less, focus tested-to-death approach is the worst aspect of modern games to me. That's the opposite of what I want and admire in games (with rare exceptions). Man. I can't believe you think that! 

Also not necessarily how i think either. There needs to be creativity, but it needs to be in the right sphere, with a focus on building engaging gameplay first and foremost before all the superficial elements come into play.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Veknoid_Outcast said:

I see what you're saying. And I certainly appreciate your perspective on this topic.

I guess where I disagree is the necessity to cater to the audience you described. Because I could list 30 or so games that don't meet the criteria described in the OP that are as good or better than Shadow of the Colossus or Gran Turismo, etc. Like I said earlier, cinematic qualities, darkness, and adult-oriented material are not good per se; they can be employed by designers to produce something beautiful and mesmerizing like Shadow of the Colossus, or twisted into a broken, boring experience like Duke Nukem Forever.

I only want to play good games, and I don't care if they star an Italian plumber or the god of war.

@bold. THIS! The games I described in OP stood out for a reason, and you're helping me elaborate on it and describe it. That's what I want to show how SotC has a value that DNForever does not have in my eyes, it's that quality I was hoping Nintendo could take cues from somehow, somewhere.

@italics. I do too, but I like to eat food, I won't say I don't care if one is chicken and the other is salad. I like both. For me SotC is an important part of my diet, as OoT and those kinds of games. If I don't have them, I need to feed myself elsewhere. Also, if one restaurant makes food that I like, but there's a dish I really love that I can only find in another restaurant, I'm going to want to have to go to that other restaurant, but always wondering "What would it be like if my favorite restaurant made games like those guys I like?".

What would it be like if Nintendo tried a safe business attempt at the kind of direction SotC, UC and GT took, something more evoking than your usual video game?



Erm... given how terrible Sony is marketing wise, i wouldnt recommend anyone else to copy them. Also, if what i say doesnt make sense, you dont know what marketing is.

But, im nice so ill give you an example. Vita is a terribly marketed product. It failed to appeal to consumers.

In terms of marketing Nintendo is an example to follow, aswell as the marketing of their games.

Maybe you meant advertising? At wich point, you might have a point. I dont like the light-blue boxes of the WiiU.



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happydolphin said:
Veknoid_Outcast said:

I see what you're saying. And I certainly appreciate your perspective on this topic.

I guess where I disagree is the necessity to cater to the audience you described. Because I could list 30 or so games that don't meet the criteria described in the OP that are as good or better than Shadow of the Colossus or Gran Turismo, etc. Like I said earlier, cinematic qualities, darkness, and adult-oriented material are not good per se; they can be employed by designers to produce something beautiful and mesmerizing like Shadow of the Colossus, or twisted into a broken, boring experience like Duke Nukem Forever.

I only want to play good games, and I don't care if they star an Italian plumber or the god of war.

@bold. THIS! The games I described in OP stood out for a reason, and you're helping me elaborate on it and describe it. That's what I want to show how SotC has a value that DNForever does not have in my eyes, it's that quality I was hoping Nintendo could take cues from somehow, somewhere.

@italics. I do too, but I like to eat food, I won't say I don't care if one is chicken and the other is salad. I like both. For me SotC is an important part of my diet, as OoT and those kinds of games. If I don't have them, I need to feed myself elsewhere. Also, if one restaurant makes food that I like, but there's a dish I really love that I can only find in another restaurant, I'm going to want to have to go to that other restaurant, but always wondering "What would it be like if my favorite restaurant made games like those guys I like?".

What would it be like if Nintendo tried a safe business attempt at the kind of direction SotC, UC and GT took, something more evoking than your usual video game?

The restaurant analogy is an interesting one. I think that's why those people who really love video games (and have the disposable income) buy all three major systems. So they can eat at all three buffets, so to speak.

But at the same time, using your analogy, wouldn't it make more sense for the chef to keep making the dishes his/her customers order the most?

I think maybe where we disagree is what in a video game has intrinsic value. And this is a question I think all enthusiasts should ask themselves. What is essential for a good game, and what is merely window dressing? There isn't an easy answer.



Mr Khan said:
Sal.Paradise said:
Mr Khan said:
 

The core issue is when developers focus on games "they" want to make, rather than games that they should make. That's the long and short of it.

Oh goodness.

When you put it like that, we couldn't think more differently. The diluted,  soul less, focus tested-to-death approach is the worst aspect of modern games to me. That's the opposite of what I want and admire in games (with rare exceptions). Man. I can't believe you think that! 

Also not necessarily how i think either. There needs to be creativity, but it needs to be in the right sphere, with a focus on building engaging gameplay first and foremost before all the superficial elements come into play.

But..a developer's unique vision for a game..is the game itself. Gameplay, graphics, music included. You seem to be saying that the gameplay should be decided by mandate instead, and that's exactly when a unique creation is wasted being converted to fit an audience it wasn't designed to for (if it was even designed with a particular audience in mind in the first place).

To tie this back to the conversation ITT, ICO for example wouldn't have happened had it been designed to sell to an established market or ape another product's style, basically if it had had someone come in and dictate what the finished game should be, to the developers. That's the corporate influence that kills creativity. 



Veknoid_Outcast said:

The restaurant analogy is an interesting one. I think that's why those people who really love video games (and have the disposable income) buy all three major systems. So they can eat at all three buffets, so to speak.

But at the same time, using your analogy, wouldn't it make more sense for the chef to keep making the dishes his/her customers order the most?

I think maybe where we disagree is what in a video game has intrinsic value. And this is a question I think all enthusiasts should ask themselves. What is essential for a good game, and what is merely window dressing? There isn't an easy answer.

I'll answer that by saying that everything in a good videogame is important, the final product is a holistic creation. You can't simply take a knife to it and separate the graphics from the gameplay or any other feature to suit an overly simplistic argument over which is better. But not many people understand that subtlety. 



Veknoid_Outcast said:

The restaurant analogy is an interesting one. I think that's why those people who really love video games (and have the disposable income) buy all three major systems. So they can eat at all three buffets, so to speak.

But at the same time, using your analogy, wouldn't it make more sense for the chef to keep making the dishes his/her customers order the most?

I think maybe where we disagree is what in a video game has intrinsic value. And this is a question I think all enthusiasts should ask themselves. What is essential for a good game, and what is merely window dressing? There isn't an easy answer.

But if there's a chef you really like, wouldn't you like to see him take a serious stab at what you like in the other chef, at least do some serious research and try to follow at least with 1 studio. Sony is trying to emulate Nintendo, why shouldn't Nintendo also try, especially when once upon a time they were able to make it happen (OP). Of course the games themselves don't sell, but they would increase the credibility of the system in the eyes of the market that is buying the competing systems. That's from a business point of view.

From a game-making point of view, if Nintendo truly are the best, they should be able to compete with Sony on all levels and genres, imho.

For a chef to limit himself to one menu is for that chef to stop reinventing himself.



Nem said:
Erm... given how terrible Sony is marketing wise, i wouldnt recommend anyone else to copy them. Also, if what i say doesnt make sense, you dont know what marketing is.

But, im nice so ill give you an example. Vita is a terribly marketed product. It failed to appeal to consumers.

In terms of marketing Nintendo is an example to follow, aswell as the marketing of their games.

Maybe you meant advertising? At wich point, you might have a point. I dont like the light-blue boxes of the WiiU.

Yes, mostly advertising. Do you think Nintendo could take a hint or two from the likes of Sony, and similarly companies like Coca Cola.

True Nintendo's image has dramatically improved with the Wii/DS-type advertising that is prestine and Apple-like. But it lacks the cultural influence of Apple, and also Sony and Coca Cola.

Nintendo has done a hell of alot to reenvigorate their brands, but there is more to learn. I believe Sony already has that expertize, it would be good for Nintendo to take notes. Of course, there's Sony, there's Coke, there's MacDonalds, all these companies that KNOW how to be culturally relevant.

Has Nintendo succeeded in this? I think not. They have everything to make 100M, but not what it takes to make 150M.