By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo - Malstrom: "The new 2d Mario games are suffering the SMB2J problem"

Soleron on 29 August 2012
F0X said:
Wow. I feel more compelled to buy NSMB2 because I realize now that SMB2J is the actual epitome of stagnation.

If there ever was such a thing as a Nintendo Difference, SMB2J vs SMB3 would be it. Although it's not my favourite game SMB3 is basically the perfect sequel.



Around the Network
nuckles87 on 29 August 2012

The article lost me the moment it said it was the reader's job to make the argument.

The burden of making the argument is ALWAYS on the writer, and if the writer can't make that argument, he shouldn't bother trying to make one. It is not my burden to make up for your lack of proof.

In any case, there are numerous reasons for why NSMB2 is selling slower then it's predecessor, but here's the top one: it isn't the first 2D Mario game in 15 years.



TSweirdo on 29 August 2012
Mandalore76 said:
JGarret said:

Very interesting what he says here:

 

NSMB sales are being severely undercut by the lack of new content and the lack of any tech or graphical showcasing. I was hoping that NSMB DS and NSMB Wii would showcase that 2d Mario is viable, and Nintendo would invest more in it. Instead, it has been the opposite. Nintendo is trying to squeeze as much revenue as possible while trying to minimize as much cost as possible. “How can you say that?” Does NSMB 2 DLC ring a bell?

“But shouldn’t all businesses do that?” What is appalling is the hypocrisy coming from Nintendo. 2d Mario, which actually sells and is universally adored, gets this lousy treatment. 3d Mario, which doesn’t sell and is not universally liked, gets an incredible budget that allows orchestrated music, new programming tech, and much money spent on the art. If anything, 3d Mario should be getting the recycled content, the ‘bah bah’ reused music, and replaying Super Mario 64 (which is what most 3d Mario fans want anyway).

Why are these two unequal games in sales, 2d Mario and 3d Mario, being treated as if 3d Mario is the flagship title? It is because there are Nintendo software developers who are more interested in 3d Mario’s success than in Nintendo’s success. If the console sales crashes and burns because of a N64, Gamecube, or 3DS (yes, 3DS is not performing in the West unlike the DS), who cares? So long as they can keep working on their precious 3d Mario, to hell if the company burns. After Mario 64 flopped and delivered the console market to Sony, any professional company would stop making Mario 64 type games. But not Nintendo.

There is a perfect correlation of the Game Industry praising Nintendo’s games when they don’t sell. When they do sell, the games are ‘awful’ or ‘not as good as people think’. And we keep hearing much encouragement from industry developers and journalists for Nintendo to keep making those games that didn’t sell. “Keep making that 3d Mario and Skyward Sword.” “Don’t you dare make more 2d Marios or Mario sports games.” “Make more games like Windwaker.” “Don’t you dare make a game like Classic Zelda.” I’m sure Microsoft and Sony love 3d Mario and hope Nintendo pours as much money as they can into it.

 

I find a lot of things wrong, and indefensible with these statements.

When did Mario 64 flop?  It sold just under 12 million copies on the N64.  It was the #1 N64 title in sales.  It was then re-released on the DS and sold nearly another 10 million putting it in the Top 10 all-time for DS software.  That's quite a few copies for a flop.  How could Mario 64 have "delivered the console market to Sony" when it's 12 million copies sold are more than any single game ever released on the Sony Play Station (Gran Turismo - 11.15 mil, Final Fantasy Fantasy VII 9.72 mil, Gran Turismo 2 - 9.36 mil)??
"3D Mario doesn't sell and is not universally liked"  Super Mario Galaxy sold 10.2 million on Wii, and is Top 10 in all-time Wii software sales.  Super Mario Galaxy 2 has sold just under 7 million copies (6.81) since it's 2010 release and is currently Top 15 in Wii software sales.  I don't think that's an indicator of titles that don't sell well and aren't universally liked.  For comparison, only 2 games in PS3's entire library of games have sold more than Mario Galaxy, and even then, not by much (Call of Duty MW3 - 12.24 mil, COD Black Ops - 11.47 mil).  And, only 5 games of XBox 360's library have sold more (Kinnect Adventures, 3 Call of Duty titles, and Halo 3).  Mario Galaxy 2's sales would place it in the Top 10 for both PS3 (it would be 6th) and XBox 360 (it would be 9th) software.  Something that doesn't sell or is not universally liked wouldn't be a Top 10 seller on it's system (or comparatively to other systems either).

And, Skyward Sword, which just released late last year, has already sold 3.36 million copies already.  Compared to PS3 software that puts it just below Batman: Arkahm Assylum, and above titles like Fallout 3, Killzone 2, and Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion.  Compared to 360, that puts it just below Left 4 Dead 2, and above Battlefield Bad Company 2, Resident Evil 5, Batman Arkahm City, and Left 4 Dead.  That's pretty good company for a game that "doesn't sell" or "no one wants".  Oh, and Ocarina of Time (N64) and Twilight Princess (Wii) both outsold the original Legend of Zelda, and A Link to the Past.

With Mario, as far as I can tell it's because it doesn't sell as well as 2d Mario. Never mind that I still sells really well, as long as it doesn't sell as well as 2d Mario, it's an inferior product.

As for Zelda, he acknowledges OoT as a good game, TP I suspect he would explain away as a result of population growth and say that a "real" Zelda game with an exploration and combat focus instead of puzzle focus would blow any "Aonuma Zelda" (any Zelda Aonuma directed after Oot because he appaerenty destroyed the franchise) out of the water in sales.

One last thing, SS is undertracked, it sold 3.52 million at the end of March. ( http://www.nintendo-insider.com/2012/04/27/legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword-claims-3-52-million-unit-sales/ ) So yeah.



Pokemon Y FC: 1461-6202-2180

in-game name: Matthew

archbrix on 30 August 2012

While I completely agree that the 8-bit Japanese Super Mario Bros 2 was not a good sequel (unlike the west's Super Mario 2, which was delightful), I disagree with making that comparison to what the "New" 2D Marios are, as they are very good, if not quite as great as they could be, perhaps.

Furthermore, regarding NSMB2 specifically, it has already been established that the more "junior" designers worked on the game while the "senior" designers are working on the WiiU version, so we don't yet know how extraordinary NSMBU (or its sales) might be.



DanneSandin on 30 August 2012

I think that a younger team (well, less experient with 2D Mario anyways) would have come up with some new, fresh ideas for the series. They could really have tried something new!



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

Around the Network
Mandalore76 on 30 August 2012
TSweirdo said:

With Mario, as far as I can tell it's because it doesn't sell as well as 2d Mario. Never mind that I still sells really well, as long as it doesn't sell as well as 2d Mario, it's an inferior product.

As for Zelda, he acknowledges OoT as a good game, TP I suspect he would explain away as a result of population growth and say that a "real" Zelda game with an exploration and combat focus instead of puzzle focus would blow any "Aonuma Zelda" (any Zelda Aonuma directed after Oot because he appaerenty destroyed the franchise) out of the water in sales.

One last thing, SS is undertracked, it sold 3.52 million at the end of March. ( http://www.nintendo-insider.com/2012/04/27/legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword-claims-3-52-million-unit-sales/ ) So yeah.

I don't think that Super Mario Galaxy should be written off when it achieved over 10 million in sales without being bundled with a system, which is a luxury that many of the 2D Mario games have had.



lilbroex on 30 August 2012
C-M-D said:

After seeing NSMB2's Japan sales and how they are tracking significantly behind NSMB's Japan sales. I feel that this might explain NSMB2's potentially worrisome sales.

http://seanmalstrom.wordpress.com/2012/06/23/the-new-2d-mario-games-are-suffering-the-smb2j-problem/

"Once upon a time, Super Mario Brothers 2 came out in Japan. The game is essentially a rom hack of Super Mario Brothers 1. Some new things were added like the whirlwinds. But it uses the same exact game engine and the same graphics and sound effects. "

" Aside from the fatal flaw of the lack of accessibility caused by the difficulty, Super Mario Brothers 2 Japanese was a flawed product because it was little more than re-using the same game engine. "

" Stagnant is the word to describe Super Mario Brothers 2 Japanese. The game adds new mechanics but nothing to the Mario universe. The engine is re-used and makes the game feel stale. This complaint about Super Mario Brothers 2 Japanese does apply to the new 2d Mario games. "

" I don’t think Nintendo understands why we buy 2d Mario. They probably just think it is about the ‘gameplay mechanics’. Let me ask Nintendo a question: if you guys were blind to the 2d Mario demand for decades, what makes you think you understand what is all going on behind the scenes today? "

 

 

Keep in minds that SMBJ2 sold 2.65 million units in Japan while SMB 1 sold 6.81 million units (According to VGC for both numbers).

You can find the full article on the link (even though I quoted most of it). :P


Worrisom sells? The game has sold 2 mill. If all sells came a halt tomoroow the would already be hit that generate extraordinary profit. This is as silly as the claim that COD is dying do to is selling like 13 mill instead of 14 mill like the previous one.



F0X on 30 August 2012
DanneSandin said:
I think that a younger team (well, less experient with 2D Mario anyways) would have come up with some new, fresh ideas for the series. They could really have tried something new!

It was a younger, different team that made NSMB2. The veterans are working on NSMBU.



3DS Friend Code: 0645 - 5827 - 5788
WayForward Kickstarter is best kickstarter: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1236620800/shantae-half-genie-hero

TSweirdo on 30 August 2012
Mandalore76 said:
TSweirdo said:

With Mario, as far as I can tell it's because it doesn't sell as well as 2d Mario. Never mind that I still sells really well, as long as it doesn't sell as well as 2d Mario, it's an inferior product.

As for Zelda, he acknowledges OoT as a good game, TP I suspect he would explain away as a result of population growth and say that a "real" Zelda game with an exploration and combat focus instead of puzzle focus would blow any "Aonuma Zelda" (any Zelda Aonuma directed after Oot because he appaerenty destroyed the franchise) out of the water in sales.

One last thing, SS is undertracked, it sold 3.52 million at the end of March. ( http://www.nintendo-insider.com/2012/04/27/legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword-claims-3-52-million-unit-sales/ ) So yeah.

I don't think that Super Mario Galaxy should be written off when it achieved over 10 million in sales without being bundled with a system, which is a luxury that many of the 2D Mario games have had.

I agree, but thats the reasoning Malstrom uses, sales=quality and 3D Mario is crap to him because it doesn't sell as well as 2D Mario.



Pokemon Y FC: 1461-6202-2180

in-game name: Matthew

C-M-D on 31 August 2012

Thank you everyone for posting here (and in my first thread)!

I think the one thing that the next 2D Mario needs to continue evolving is online multiplayer but sadly, I don't think that NSMB U is going to have online multiplayer. But things might change by the end of the year.