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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Graphics: Gamecube vs. Xbox vs. PS2 vs. Dreamcast

hsrob said:
I don't know, maybe I'm looking at the past through rose-coloured glasses but this thread makes me long for the previous generation.

A time when; developers seemed to make a greater effort to bring unique games to each piece of hardware, people were pleased when a game simply had good graphics by the standards of that system, there wasn't a constant pissing contest over which bit of hardware was the most powerful and plenty of good games were had by all.

But maybe that's just me.

I think a big part of it is that, last-gen, you probably weren't on a sale-oriented site which caters specifically to system wars pissing matches.



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I think everyone arguing here should read through this thread: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=61761. Pretty informative, some game developers even give their two cents too.



Scoobes said:
lilbroex said:

Have fun

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoGameCube?from=Main.Gamecube

http://cube.ign.com/articles/092/092458p1.html

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/2146

http://www.gamecheatsmaster.net/articles/790500c4f6d7a6db

http://www.nintengen.com/2007/07/wii-has-more-power-than-you-think.html(posted for the GC facts listed)

http://www.gamespot.com/star-wars-rogue-squadron-iii-rebel-strike/previews/star-wars-rogue-squadron-iii-rebel-strike-updated-preview-6075808/?page=3

http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5342

 

Please show me an Xbox game pulling this off. I'll be waiting right here when you get through chasing red herrings.(ie, attacking gameplay and design preference)

This link might help:

http://www.purevideogames.net/blog/?p=479

A few quotes from the article:

"The Xbox’s fillrate is nowhere NEAR 4 Gtexels/sec (more like 250-750 Mtexels, according to developers). Xbox’s system bandwidth isn’t a true 6.4GB/sec, considering any info from the CPU to the GPU and vice-versa is bottlenecked at 1.02GB/sec; one-third of GCN’s overall system bandwidth in realtime.

Xbox’s GPU also requires 16MB of the 64MB DDR just to cull a Z-buffer (which is embedded on the GCN GPU at no cost to system memory), and also GCN’s internal GPU bandwidth is more than twice that of Xbox’s (25GB/sec compared to 10GB/sec).

Also, Xbox claims to have more effects than GameCube, and better texturing ability in its GPU, when the XGPU can only do 4 texture layers per pass, and only 4 infinite hardware lights per pass (8 local lights can be done, also). GCN, on the other hand, boasts 8 texture layers per pass, and 8 infinite hardware lights and local lights per pass, all realtime."

and:

Dead or Alive 3, a game Tecmo said “was impossible on any system other than Xbox” due to the amount of polygons onscreen, is a 9-10mps game, tops. The character models (which were also claimed to be an impossibility elsewhere) consisted of 9,000 polygons each- the same amount of polygons in characters in StarFox Adventures, Eternal Darkness, and even in Luigi’s Mansion (end boss). Resident Evil 0, however, boasts the highest polygonal “low-end” model to-date- a whopping 25,000 poly character. Now why is this possible (even against prerendered backgrounds) on a “less techincal” console?


I'm a fan of Nintendo but Eternal Darkness!?  That was a great game but it looked pretty dated when it released.  It should NEVER be used in a graphics debate.  Also, don't ever listen to what a dev says is impossible on another console.  The problem may be that the dev just isn't capable of doing something and another developer is.  I say it's impossible to run two miles without stopping and it is......for me.  That doesn't mean it's impossible.



Did someone in here really say Wii is 4x more powerful than Xbox?

>_>



I'd say Gamecube and Xbox were about on par.
The Xbox had more RAM and a more powerfull GPU, on the other hand the Gamecube had faster RAM and, in general, a better system architecture, allowing a better performance on level streaming.
Also we can't really tell which is better since you can't really compare different art direction and design.



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d21lewis said:
Scoobes said:
lilbroex said:

Have fun

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoGameCube?from=Main.Gamecube

http://cube.ign.com/articles/092/092458p1.html

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/2146

http://www.gamecheatsmaster.net/articles/790500c4f6d7a6db

http://www.nintengen.com/2007/07/wii-has-more-power-than-you-think.html(posted for the GC facts listed)

http://www.gamespot.com/star-wars-rogue-squadron-iii-rebel-strike/previews/star-wars-rogue-squadron-iii-rebel-strike-updated-preview-6075808/?page=3

http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5342

 

Please show me an Xbox game pulling this off. I'll be waiting right here when you get through chasing red herrings.(ie, attacking gameplay and design preference)

This link might help:

http://www.purevideogames.net/blog/?p=479

A few quotes from the article:

"The Xbox’s fillrate is nowhere NEAR 4 Gtexels/sec (more like 250-750 Mtexels, according to developers). Xbox’s system bandwidth isn’t a true 6.4GB/sec, considering any info from the CPU to the GPU and vice-versa is bottlenecked at 1.02GB/sec; one-third of GCN’s overall system bandwidth in realtime.

Xbox’s GPU also requires 16MB of the 64MB DDR just to cull a Z-buffer (which is embedded on the GCN GPU at no cost to system memory), and also GCN’s internal GPU bandwidth is more than twice that of Xbox’s (25GB/sec compared to 10GB/sec).

Also, Xbox claims to have more effects than GameCube, and better texturing ability in its GPU, when the XGPU can only do 4 texture layers per pass, and only 4 infinite hardware lights per pass (8 local lights can be done, also). GCN, on the other hand, boasts 8 texture layers per pass, and 8 infinite hardware lights and local lights per pass, all realtime."

and:

Dead or Alive 3, a game Tecmo said “was impossible on any system other than Xbox” due to the amount of polygons onscreen, is a 9-10mps game, tops. The character models (which were also claimed to be an impossibility elsewhere) consisted of 9,000 polygons each- the same amount of polygons in characters in StarFox Adventures, Eternal Darkness, and even in Luigi’s Mansion (end boss). Resident Evil 0, however, boasts the highest polygonal “low-end” model to-date- a whopping 25,000 poly character. Now why is this possible (even against prerendered backgrounds) on a “less techincal” console?


I'm a fan of Nintendo but Eternal Darkness!?  That was a great game but it looked pretty dated when it released.  It should NEVER be used in a graphics debate.  Also, don't ever listen to what a dev says is impossible on another console.  The problem may be that the dev just isn't capable of doing something and another developer is.  I say it's impossible to run two miles without stopping and it is......for me.  That doesn't mean it's impossible.

I wouldn't know, I never played it. I think it was solely being used to debate a point about the number of polygons used on GC vs Xbox.



I love this thread. It's the best one I've read on here in quite some time.

Graphical debates are the best.



I don't know why people tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer, I have lots of lives!

Scoobes said:
d21lewis said:
Scoobes said:
lilbroex said:

Have fun

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoGameCube?from=Main.Gamecube

http://cube.ign.com/articles/092/092458p1.html

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/interview/2146

http://www.gamecheatsmaster.net/articles/790500c4f6d7a6db

http://www.nintengen.com/2007/07/wii-has-more-power-than-you-think.html(posted for the GC facts listed)

http://www.gamespot.com/star-wars-rogue-squadron-iii-rebel-strike/previews/star-wars-rogue-squadron-iii-rebel-strike-updated-preview-6075808/?page=3

http://www.the-magicbox.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5342

 

Please show me an Xbox game pulling this off. I'll be waiting right here when you get through chasing red herrings.(ie, attacking gameplay and design preference)

This link might help:

http://www.purevideogames.net/blog/?p=479

A few quotes from the article:

"The Xbox’s fillrate is nowhere NEAR 4 Gtexels/sec (more like 250-750 Mtexels, according to developers). Xbox’s system bandwidth isn’t a true 6.4GB/sec, considering any info from the CPU to the GPU and vice-versa is bottlenecked at 1.02GB/sec; one-third of GCN’s overall system bandwidth in realtime.

Xbox’s GPU also requires 16MB of the 64MB DDR just to cull a Z-buffer (which is embedded on the GCN GPU at no cost to system memory), and also GCN’s internal GPU bandwidth is more than twice that of Xbox’s (25GB/sec compared to 10GB/sec).

Also, Xbox claims to have more effects than GameCube, and better texturing ability in its GPU, when the XGPU can only do 4 texture layers per pass, and only 4 infinite hardware lights per pass (8 local lights can be done, also). GCN, on the other hand, boasts 8 texture layers per pass, and 8 infinite hardware lights and local lights per pass, all realtime."

and:

Dead or Alive 3, a game Tecmo said “was impossible on any system other than Xbox” due to the amount of polygons onscreen, is a 9-10mps game, tops. The character models (which were also claimed to be an impossibility elsewhere) consisted of 9,000 polygons each- the same amount of polygons in characters in StarFox Adventures, Eternal Darkness, and even in Luigi’s Mansion (end boss). Resident Evil 0, however, boasts the highest polygonal “low-end” model to-date- a whopping 25,000 poly character. Now why is this possible (even against prerendered backgrounds) on a “less techincal” console?


I'm a fan of Nintendo but Eternal Darkness!?  That was a great game but it looked pretty dated when it released.  It should NEVER be used in a graphics debate.  Also, don't ever listen to what a dev says is impossible on another console.  The problem may be that the dev just isn't capable of doing something and another developer is.  I say it's impossible to run two miles without stopping and it is......for me.  That doesn't mean it's impossible.

I wouldn't know, I never played it. I think it was solely being used to debate a point about the number of polygons used on GC vs Xbox.

some of the models in roguee leader pushed a million polygons

 

http://cube.ign.com/articles/165/165337p1.html



Tsubasa Ozora

Keiner kann ihn bremsen, keiner macht ihm was vor. Immer der richtige Schuss, immer zur richtigen Zeit. Superfussball, Fairer Fussball. Er ist unser Torschützenkönig und Held.

Sigh ... Sometimes I feel like I'm in 2002 all over again

A large portion of the Gamecube vs. XBox debate, as far as which produced better graphics, has centered on the differences between a fixed functionality GPU and a programmable GPU.

Back in the late 1990s most of the best GPUs had a fixed functionality pipeline that was augmented with pixel combiners. Many of these GPUs were able to produce many of the effects that were present in Gamecube/XBox games but game developers didn't take advantage of them because every GPU had a different set of features, and each manufacturer had different ways to take advantage of them.

The Geforce 3 was the first (IIRC) nVidia GPU that included programmable pixel and vertex shaders and Microsoft selected this GPU (and modified it) for the XBox, while Nintendo worked with a small GPU company that developed fixed functionality GPUs for flight simulators (ArtX).

The Gamecube was able to generate polygons that had 8 texture layers, each using a different texture effect from their built in pipline or using simple pixel combiners, and still render 10 to 12 million polygons per second. From what I remember, the XBox could only do 4 texture layers at a time but the programmable shaders allowed more complicated effects per layer.

If games were designed to take full advantage of the Gamecube's GPU they could not be replicated on the XBox because the XBox would require two texture passes and dramatically lower polygon throughput below what the GPU could do. At the same time, if games were designed to take full advantage of the XBox's GPU they could not be replicated by the Gamecube because the Gamecube's ability to produce advanced shaders was limited to the capabilities of pixel combiners.



HappySqurriel said:
Sigh ... Sometimes I feel like I'm in 2002 all over again

A large portion of the Gamecube vs. XBox debate, as far as which produced better graphics, has centered on the differences between a fixed functionality GPU and a programmable GPU.

Back in the late 1990s most of the best GPUs had a fixed functionality pipeline that was augmented with pixel combiners. Many of these GPUs were able to produce many of the effects that were present in Gamecube/XBox games but game developers didn't take advantage of them because every GPU had a different set of features, and each manufacturer had different ways to take advantage of them.

The Geforce 3 was the first (IIRC) nVidia GPU that included programmable pixel and vertex shaders and Microsoft selected this GPU (and modified it) for the XBox, while Nintendo worked with a small GPU company that developed fixed functionality GPUs for flight simulators (ArtX).

The Gamecube was able to generate polygons that had 8 texture layers, each using a different texture effect from their built in pipline or using simple pixel combiners, and still render 10 to 12 million polygons per second. From what I remember, the XBox could only do 4 texture layers at a time but the programmable shaders allowed more complicated effects per layer.

If games were designed to take full advantage of the Gamecube's GPU they could not be replicated on the XBox because the XBox would require two texture passes and dramatically lower polygon throughput below what the GPU could do. At the same time, if games were designed to take full advantage of the XBox's GPU they could not be replicated by the Gamecube because the Gamecube's ability to produce advanced shaders was limited to the capabilities of pixel combiners.

Great post. This should really end the argument.