Nobody wants the devs heads... smh I thought that much was clear. Most of us are just irritated because people are still defending the idea that this game did not copy smash when it's overly obvious at this point.

That's the issue, denial (by fans). I've said it already, it doesn't really need to be said again.

Had people just said, yeah it's a copy, SO WHAT? It would have been end of story. True, a person like me could just let it go. Maybe that's what I will do. But for me this was an important exercise because there are only a handful of games I really consider myself a fan of, Smash being one of them.

This exercise helped me to realize that people will blame Nintendo fans for just about anything, when in the end the problem was just to simply say "yeah, okay it is basically the same game, now let's just get over it and have fun". But that didn't happen, and instead Nintendo fans are called whiners and party poopers.

It sucks. Sucks that we haven't gotten past that point.

No the issue is you guys seems to have an issue with people saying hey look, obviously the game is heavily inspired by smash...but it does bring enough to the table to differentiate itself. that's all we are saying. I mean for crying out loud,. the devs have been saying so from the start! They even said smash and sony fans wanting a game like that for PS is the reason why they came to be even. But naaah, that's not enough apparently.

No this exercise shows that nintendo fans are a very very defensive bunch. The reason and the logic is there. Yet choose not to see it. Rather take the comments of a guy who hasn't even touched the game over someone who has. It clearly shows in that thread on the dtoid hands on. Never said you guys are whiners, but not gonna argue against it either. 

yes it really does suck...especially since the haterade has been spewed for so damn long on this game already. It's been months and sadly I doubt we will hear the end of it from you guys for years to come. I find this whole situation rather sad really.The only denial in play here is that people need to accept two things

A. The game is heavily inspired by smash. It came into existence cuz of smash. the devs have not been coy about this either. It's a fact.

B. The game does a lot of different things than smash. Even at this early reveal level it does enough things differently to differentiate itself. People need to deal with it and get over that. 

This game is good for smash too...as all competition is. Hopefully smash creators can use the good things abut the final form of this game in their future titles as well. And I hope sony fans won't go bonkers over it either. 

I like that, I hope so too. Sometimes it's liking a game for the company more than the game.

I'll admit the debate has gone on so far it just feels like it's running off oil at this point. It's just really sad that it took this long for the two communities to understand each other.

The Nintendo fans very rarely had anything against the devs, apart from the "tags up for comments" bit. We'd still need to look into that.

I know the game is going to be fun, and I'm finally happy to see it come to fruition. I've done my best to control myself in Sal's thread personally and even offered apologies there. But the destructoid article was an overly positive article that had little credibility in my view, it should have been written by somebody else, but what can you do. Granted he played the game, but he isn't the only one... I won't pretend to have the Beta because I don't have it, but I'm sure I could have written up a much more interesting review than his. Anyways that's another topic, but I'm mostly surprised you don't see the flaws in that review, Muge.

For point B., let me just say that it does not do "a lot" of things differently. If you go to my thread, you will see the similarities and differences listed. Also, after watching alot of footage and studying the controller map, it would be hard for my judgement to be so far off, especially after having played alot of this kind of game in the past. I disagree with point B, and with minor changes Brawl could have a PASBR mode, with minor coding effort. Granted the game wouldn't be tailored around it, but the mode could at least prove the point.

There is no haterade, I don't even know why the debate has gotten this far. It should be pretty straightforward at this point, we're all gamers, many of us have played smash, we have seen all the footage and talked about it alot. It's not about hate at this point, it's just about two communities being truthful to each other and bring valid arguments to the table and talk about them with civility. After that, it's "Have fun with PASBR!".

I hope that helps.

The developers invited this kind of reaction when they decided to so closely mirror Brawl.  Sony fans wanted a fighting game with Sony's characters.  That much is true. Sony fans didn't demand that said game take everything wholesale from Brawl.

As for taking the opinions of people who haven't touched the game... I'm not.  There are tons of videos of the game out there.  It's not hard to watch them and draw conclusions.

As for the Destructoid article, it was a poorly written argument.  The writer said how this game completely rewrote the rulebook on this style of game, but he failed to adequetely explain how. 

And, if you're complaining about how Nintendo fans aren't listening to opposing arguments, maybe telling them to "shut the hell up" is a bit hypocritical. 

ok first off two things. If you don't see nintendo fans spreading haterade for this game And/or can't see anyone accusing devs nonstop....you need to look better. It's every friggin where. Even here on vgc. it's quite pathetic really..it's been months already. let's be honest here...this is no two communities being truthful or anything nice like that. This is about nintendo fans being offended and getting worked up about the similarties about the games (and as I have said already, devs have no issue addressing this) yet also get worked up when people say it does enough things to differentiate itself. It's ironic. 

I mean the tags bit...as I explained above...how friggin stupid is that? It's a moronic thing to do from the sony's side as well as it's stupid to accuse develops as that showcases their 'intentions' or something. I already gave a very good example to show why it's not the devs, and most probably a pr team or someone behind such things. The ones who are making the game most probably has nothing to do with any of that. Heck, they didn't even pick the atrocious name for the game either.

No, you and others seems to have an issue with accepting his opinion ONLY because he puts the game even at a beta level over smash. Guess what? he is not the only one. But the same crowd does the opposite due to words from a japanese dev who has yet to even touch the game...the same man who asked 'what' a gabe newell is >_> He is a moron if he doesn't even know that much. The dtoid article is NOT a review. It's a hands on impression article. 

If that was a hint, I'm not pretending to be in the beta. Ask Axum, heavenly king or anyone on my psn. I'm in the beta. Been playing it all morning too.

The gameplay in the available mode, the way the stages are set up, the way the music is set up, the strategies involved, offensive vs defensive gameplay etc are all different. Not minor changes, the whole dynamics of smash bros will need to change if it to have a mode like this one. Don't write off so easily. And saying that something that is not in existence, can make the games more alike, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, I'm sorry. it's like saying adding a vertical element to gears could potentially make it similar to Uncharted MP. yes, I'm sure it will...but doesn't change the fact that they are, in reality, different games, despite being third person shooters.

And I might be wrong here, and I hope someone actually does an article comparing this, but the game seems to have a much bigger move set per character as well. 

Fact of the matter is, other than the points I have made so far, the game do have a very different feel to it. I can play this and go play smash and have a very different experience altogether. This is something devs have also been saying from the start. Go in with an open mind. This game does not play like smash (at least in this mode)..if you do go with that mentality, you run the risk of getting your ass handed to you.

The sad situation is , it's not as rosy as you say it is here. That's just the reality of things. 

anyways again my point remains, The game has been heavily influenced by smash, yet does enough things to differentiate the overall experience from almost anything else in the fighting game market. That's all I have to say on the matter

No I'm asking them to stop whining. And get over the whole issue already. And shutting up and actually listening, does not have anything do with each other. I do listen to the arguments and respond. Actually I haven't responded as much as I like to because it's useless with many of you. You have already made up your mind about all of this.

yep and I'm sure they knew it too. Hence why they gave straight forward answers to the questions regarding the similarities between the game from the get go. The only real problem here is the visual style as i see it. If they changed that enough none of this would have happened. It's a mistake on their part because sadly it makes people focus on the visuals itself and nothing else.

Coming to a conclusion about games you haven't played based on videos is a very silly way to compare. I am tired of saying how different it plays by now really. And it seems you guys have an issue with anyone having such an opinion either. I see no issue with what the dtoid guy said. he apparently prefers some of the things this game does over smash and has expressed as such. Such matters are all objective. It's like preferring dissidia gameplay to powerstone. Or blazblue to SF. it's just personal preferences. I take his opinion with more credit than anyone who have yet to play the game. People who will eventually play this title will see how the tiers of supers, stages, promoting offensive play heavily etc makes the gameplay much different. But again if you don't go in with an open mind you want notice anything. Heck I saw someone (I believe it was here on vgc) saying, omg the game uses the shape buttons to attack even.....I mean like no way? 

I can't go in order here, so I'll say them as they come to my mind. Also this is long, but I put alot of thought into this, so bear with me.

No, it wasn't a hint I didn't doubt it for a second. I was just saying that for me, I'm not in it my PS3 is dead still and I will need to fix it very soon.

I understood the intern thing, I got it I was just wondering what the devs reaction to the whole tags thing was since it was brought up by Jwein, that's all.

I could be wrong, but you might interpret a bit of of shock with anti-Sony sentiment. It is a shock, let us get over it too. I got over it but some other fans didn't, you can't blame them. Had Nintendo done that to Ico, would you be happy? Part of you would of course (because you love the game), but another part would be like "hey! you shouldn't steal ideas like that!". It's just a normal reaction. After that, well, we bring it up and that's it. People resist the judgement why? Once it's admitted, okay we move on. But the problem alot of Ninty fans face in Sony fans is denial. It may or may not be the case here, but that's how it appears to me at least in most other cases. A lot of defending things that are really obvious at times, and it gets kind of annoying on the long run.

I think it's important for a dev to express his displeasure in the imitation of products, especially in an industry that's in dire need for creative input. Is he right to do it? Maybe not. Maybe Sony can't afford to create a whole new experience from the round up (like Powerstone or some other architecture for the brawler genre). So maybe he's wrong about calling it out, be he wouldn't be wrong on what he was calling out.

Call the dtoid article what you want, it's an opinion on a piece of software, pre or post release is not the issue. His opinion on the game was not well written, and that is my honest opinion. If the thread were unlocked (sadly ninetailschris wasn't able to control himself and understand the forum rules) I would go now and do a breakdown of it. And no, I don't need to have played the game to do that. If we really need it, I will break down the article and send you the text by PM if you like. I thought it was a very poor piece of journalism, but maybe that's just because I'm 1) a smash fan and 2) a fighter fan.

@bold. Only difference is that Smash already has modes, so adding one wouldn't be as architecturally deviant as the one you suggested.

@comparison to 3rd person shooters. Had you really participated in the convo, you would've seen that there is alot of variability within the fighting genre. PASBR could have looked like anything else really. For more details see my comparison thread, there are tons of videos and alternatives, and I'm still missing some (dissidia and ehrgeiz).

@offensive vs defensive. Again a minor mode change for smash, but aside from that true it makes a big difference I saw that in the DON video (again see my comparison thread).

This definitely would be interesting.

I am going in with an open mind, I know much more about this game than you think, and I know I would do pretty well, these are the kind of games I'm good at.

@bold. You're probably right, and maybe it's possible to fix that on both ends.

@underline. See JWein's comments on SF vs MK vs KoF and then comments on SC vs Tekken vs DoA, and also vids on Powerstone vs Knuckle-heads vs DON vs TMNT Smash-up. This topic is much more vast than meets the eye, and some of us have taken the time to study it in detail. I encourage you to do the same to actually come to a truly solid conclusion, since I really disagree with underline for objective reasons.

blah nvm this is useless

You can't say I didn't try Muge.

Let's take this little gem from our wonderful destructoid writer. 

"Perhaps it's a benefit of these characters being born on more advanced hardware or not being limited to 2D platformers, but All-Stars roster feels much more imaginative and fitting than any Smash Bros. game."

Cuz you know, Link, Marth, Ness, Jigglypuff, Falcon, Ganondorf, Olimar, Pikachu, Ike, Pokemon Trainer, Fox, Wolf, Falco, Rob, and Snake were from 2D platformers right?

"Unlike Smash Bros., all players are always in it to win it since there is no life count. There is also no way of knowing what the score is during a match."

Ummm... except that the default mode of Smash Bros has no life count OR score counter?

So that's why we didn't listen to him.  Because he doesn't seem to know much about Smash, and his article is poorly written.

As for move sets, it seems PASBR should have more.  While Brawl modifies light/heavy attacks by tilts or flicks of the joystick, PASBR has differentiates between tilts and smashes with a button from what I see.  Since smashes don't work in the air but heavy attacks do, this should mean four additional moves per character, plus two extra finishers.  So, that should mean a couple more moves.  However, it seems that some of the situational moves from smash are gone.  Do characters have dash attacks, or wake up attacks?  Depending on that, we're left with 4-6 extra moves per character.  So, there's that. Overall the moveset should be slightly larger.

Saying that the experience is different doesn't really hold up, because it's not that hard to change the experience of a fighting game.  A good fighting game is a very tightly crafted machine, and tightening or loosening one bolt can change the experience.  Let's say I made a Street Fighter IV hack that made it possible to block in the air.  The resulting game would be very different.  Air approaches would be far less risky, air throws would suddenly be much more useful tools, and anti-airs like Ryu's light shoryuken would suddenly be unsafe.  Is this a new game?  If I made a SFIV hack where only Ultras did damage, that would also completely change the game, but the result wouldn't make this a new game.

Or, let's take Brawl and Melee.  One of the main changes in physics between Brawl and Melee is its airdodge physics (btw airdodging is an element in PASBR and Smash that I don't recall seeing in any other mainstream fighter).  This seemingly minor change (along with a minor change with shields) in physics completely changed Melee from a very aggresive, very tech skill heavy game to a game of spacing, position, and defense.

Even within Brawl itself, you can easily change feel of the game.  Change the game between stock, time (the mode that Destructoid doesn't know exists), stamina, and coin, and suddenly you have a different feel to the game.  Even changing the stage from Final Destination to New Pork City changes the game quite a bit.  There are many fan made brawl hacks (see Project M) that differ greatly from Brawl.  So, basically, it doesn't take much to change a fighting game.  The fact that the game feels somewhat different isn't a big accomplishment considering the genre, and it doesn't excuse the fact that the project is bereft of originality and steals 90% (actual number may vary) of its mechanics from Smash Brothers.

To sum it up, let's take Uncharted and Gears of War.  Let's say I wanted to change Gears of War into "Uncharted: Fenix Edition".  We don't have to get to a full Uncharted remake, but we have to get close enough that the game would qualify as a spin off.  How much would I have to change?  Well, the graphics engine would have to go and be retooled from the ground up.  On a technical level or an art style level the games look very different.  The physics would have to be altered heavily (Gears enemies tend to be far less rattled by bullets than Uncharted enemies).  I'd have to build a platforming engine from the ground up (no pun intended).  Level design would have to be changed to accomodate exploration elements, and the placement of enemies would have to be spread out more evenly.  Giant monsters would have to go and Fenix's squadmates would have to go bye bye (sorry Baird).  The melee combat system would have to be completely redone.  Co-op mode would be nixed. Even with all of that, I don't think we're half way to uncharted.

Now, let's say I wanted to make turn PSABR into Smash.  Well, I'd have to take down the walls on either edge of the stage.  Allow characters to grab ledges (if they can't).  Make falling off the stage give points.  Change the AP bar to a % meter.  Program knock back to scale with damage.  And we're done.

You admit that PSABR is heavily influenced by Smash which I don't think anyone would seriously dispute.  So, how much do you have to change to create an original game?  You think that PSABR changes enough.  That's your opinion, and that's fine.  I don't think they change nearly enough.