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Forums - General Discussion - Your "Free" Will is Not Free

blkfish92 said:
I don't always profit on my decisions.

First of all, the question is not wether in the end you actually profit on a decision, but what your brain was expecting/betting to be the more profitable decision.

And of course, "profit" is a misleading word. It can of course also be a decision of what is "the lesser of two evils".

And the profit isn't always obvious. One could for example claim that someone who gives money to a homeless person disproves the theory. But that's not the case, for that person gets a profit as well: for example, feeling like a good person for helping the poor.

 

Personally, I have big doubts about free will as well. In computer sciences I learned the neural network model that is used for artificial intelligence. The basis is a very simple yet elegant mathematical model for how neurons work, the brain's smallest units. Based on this successful and plausible model, it makes sense for me to consider the brain a rather deterministic kind of computer. It's the sheer amount of neurons and synapses that makes the brain so complex and hard to understand.

On the other, the first question might be "what is free will"? From what I can read on Wikipedia, different sciences have different understandings of that phrase.



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Mnementh said:

That's proven wrong. Eonomists have condensed the formula 'humans make decisions based on what prfits them most' into the model of the homo oeconomicus. Experimental psychologists have set up experiments to prove the model - and showed that actual humans often decide against their profit. Hmans are far more comlex in their decisions, maximizing profit is one possibility, but altruism is also part of human nature.

The homo oeconomicus model is flawed for several reasons (like every homo oeconomicus being perfectly informed etc.), but I don't consider things like altruism real flaws to that model. In my opinion, the "profit" of altruistic behaviour simply isn't as obvious, but in the end altruism is still "egoistic".



The basis for free will is simply that at the end of the day, the decisions are ours to make, whatever our conditions might be. That's why we need education to be able to make decisions that will do the most good for the most people, so that we can understand that we are never acting in a vacuum



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ArnoldRimmer said:
Mnementh said:

That's proven wrong. Eonomists have condensed the formula 'humans make decisions based on what prfits them most' into the model of the homo oeconomicus. Experimental psychologists have set up experiments to prove the model - and showed that actual humans often decide against their profit. Hmans are far more comlex in their decisions, maximizing profit is one possibility, but altruism is also part of human nature.

The homo oeconomicus model is flawed for several reasons (like every homo oeconomicus being perfectly informed etc.), but I don't consider things like altruism real flaws to that model. In my opinion, the "profit" of altruistic behaviour simply isn't as obvious, but in the end altruism is still "egoistic".

I agree that are more flaws on the model. But you are not right on altruism. There are cases, in which altruism benefits you personally long time. But in other cases, you clearly get no personal benefit. It is explainable with evolution, there are evolutionary benefits of such behaviour. But the model of homo oeconomicus is based on PERSONAL profit and I think if the OP talks about maximizing profit he also means personal profit. Humans do things, that are not so. Sometimes people even willingly die for others. But also less extreme cases of true altruism (not long term egoism).



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SaviorX said:
Would you rather have peace, or freedom?

If you don't have peace, you have war. War is chaotic, drastic things happen fast in a hard to predict way. Your freedoms of choice are harmed in a war, even if you first may profit from it. So, without peace freedom is much harder to achieve.



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I don't see how this argument invalidates the "freedom" of free will ...

Free Will: The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

In the example provided the individual faced countless choices from buying candy on two days, buying coke on one day, saving their money until they could afford both, stealing one or both items, trading sexual favours with the clerk in exchange for both items, etc. and they ended up making the choice that seemed most rational to them. The fact that they had the ability to rationalize the decision and make the choice demonstrates that they had free will ...



badgenome said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

You can ask the very same question to the murderer mentioned in the OP. From his point of view, murdering his victim would result in a more profitable situation than not murdering him. Whether he made a miscalculation and regretted his actions afterwards does not matter, because at that very moment he too asked himself "Why would I not murder him?" and came to the conclusion that murder would be more profitable than anything else.

Yes, you could, but that doesn't disprove free will. Or just "will", which I think is probably a better philosophical term, because of course your actions aren't completely untethered from the past experiences that have come to define your character over the years. If free will means that you just drift through life making a series of utterly random choices, then you'd have neither a chracter nor will. But if what you argue is true, every single thing that has happened - including me typing this post right now - was set into motion from the moment of the Big Bang or whatever and could never have happened any other way.

There is a huge gulf between this, where the leopard attacks purely based on instinct and literally could make no other choice because it operates purely on biological imperatives, and someone like James Holmes who shot up a movie theater after much meticulous planning and could have called the thing off at any time but chose to do it anyway.



The main difference I see between the leopard and the human would be the human's vastly superior ability of analysing the situation and predict several potential outcomes of his actions. In the end, James followed his instincts and did what he had wanted to do for a long time. It would make no sense for him to not do it since he so badly wanted to.

I suppose you can explain or even justify each and every single little events or actions but that doesn't in any way invalidate free will.



Yes, xLefty and HappySquriel, you do have a point. The purpose of this thread is not to disprove free will (because that would be impossible), but to stop people from saying "Fuck him/her for commiting such actions." when in reality you can explain/justify them.