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Forums - Nintendo - ‘Nintendo Harness Their Hardware Like Nobody Else’

Khuutra on 29 July 2012
Gnac said:
What the hell are you people doing when you should be playing games?

OH DEM EFFECTS

Help me, Gnac

All I got is this knife



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Mr Khan on 29 July 2012

For the life of me i don't know how a complete non-starter topic like this got anywhere. "First parties use the features that their consoles have."



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

lilbroex on 29 July 2012
curl-6 said:
lilbroex said:
curl-6 said:

Jett Rocket used bumpmapping too, on things like the dimpled sand in the beach levels. As for shadows, Mario Galaxy 2's were pretty glitchy in the case of the dragon battle you pointed out. And there were plenty of places where SMG2 could've benefitted from refractive surfaces but didn't, like with ice and metal.

JR's water effects are better than Galaxy 2's also, and where most enemies in SMG2 had just a rim shader, JR's nearly always had specular and environment maps.


I didn't say bumpmapping. Normal Mapping and bump mapping are two different things. Normal mapping is far more taxing on hardware than bump mapping and far more detailed.

Shin'en detailed everything they did with Jett Rocket.

http://jettrocket.wordpress.com/

Nowhere does it say they used bump mapping  nor was is demonstrated anywhere. The only texture effect they used was EMBM which is a native effect to the Wii's TEV that doesn't require much resources on the GPU. Normal mapping is far more complex resource intensive.

How do you know that's even normal mapping on the dragon? It could have been done with embossing or EMBM. 

And just because Shin'en don't mention bump/normal mapping in that document, doesn't mean it's not the game. They don't really talk much about their material effects at all there, it's more about the lighting, framerate, and other such things.

 

@famousringo: I know, but I'm enjoying this discussion.


No it couldn't. EMBM doens't look like that. Embossed Mapping produces and embossing effect.  Second, people actually ripped the graphics out of Mario Galaxy 2 and found out that they were using normal mapping.

I can tell the difference on sight. They don't look the same. Shin'en said exactly what they used. When they showed the chart of adding textures and they got to "specular masking" that was EMBM. You don't seem to know much about grahpics outside of what you think is pretty and what you think is not. I see this a lot when it comes to discussing the hardware potential and capabilities of the Wii.



TripleMMM on 29 July 2012

Now that's a bold statement from a third-party, no less...



 And proud member of the Mega Mario Movement!
Dgc1808 on 29 July 2012

After my time with Mario Galaxy, LoZ:TP and Brawl, I disagree.



4 ≈ One

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curl-6 on 30 July 2012
lilbroex said:
curl-6 said:
lilbroex said:
curl-6 said:

Jett Rocket used bumpmapping too, on things like the dimpled sand in the beach levels. As for shadows, Mario Galaxy 2's were pretty glitchy in the case of the dragon battle you pointed out. And there were plenty of places where SMG2 could've benefitted from refractive surfaces but didn't, like with ice and metal.

JR's water effects are better than Galaxy 2's also, and where most enemies in SMG2 had just a rim shader, JR's nearly always had specular and environment maps.


I didn't say bumpmapping. Normal Mapping and bump mapping are two different things. Normal mapping is far more taxing on hardware than bump mapping and far more detailed.

Shin'en detailed everything they did with Jett Rocket.

http://jettrocket.wordpress.com/

Nowhere does it say they used bump mapping  nor was is demonstrated anywhere. The only texture effect they used was EMBM which is a native effect to the Wii's TEV that doesn't require much resources on the GPU. Normal mapping is far more complex resource intensive.

How do you know that's even normal mapping on the dragon? It could have been done with embossing or EMBM. 

And just because Shin'en don't mention bump/normal mapping in that document, doesn't mean it's not the game. They don't really talk much about their material effects at all there, it's more about the lighting, framerate, and other such things.

 

@famousringo: I know, but I'm enjoying this discussion.


No it couldn't. EMBM doens't look like that. Embossed Mapping produces and embossing effect.  Second, people actually ripped the graphics out of Mario Galaxy 2 and found out that they were using normal mapping.

I can tell the difference on sight. They don't look the same. Shin'en said exactly what they used. When they showed the chart of adding textures and they got to "specular masking" that was EMBM. You don't seem to know much about grahpics outside of what you think is pretty and what you think is not. I see this a lot when it comes to discussing the hardware potential and capabilities of the Wii.

On examination, the dragon is definitely EMBM. That look of a shiny surface made to look bumpy through distortion of the shininess is characteristic of the effect. If it was normal mapped the rim light would be affected by the "bumps," but it isn't.

And the page on Jett Rocket talks about the texture layers on the character of Jett himself, who I never said was bumpmapped. They never talked about, say, texturing the bumpy sand.



kain_kusanagi on 30 July 2012

It's true that Nintendo uses their hardware best. Zelda SS uses motion controls better than all other Wii games. But I still wish it didn't use motion controls at all. I want to go back to standard buttons and joysticks. I don't want to wave around a controller even if it's 1-1. I want to slide back in my Lazy Boy with a gamepad in my lap while snacking on a bag of chips and a big soda. Why does Nintendo, Microsoft, and Sony think I want to sit up straight or stand up and swing my hands around? At least give me the option to go passive with standard controls. After a long day at work I really don't feel like more activity. I want to relax.



lilbroex on 30 July 2012
curl-6 said:

On examination, the dragon is definitely EMBM. That look of a shiny surface made to look bumpy through distortion of the shininess is characteristic of the effect. If it was normal mapped the rim light would be affected by the "bumps," but it isn't.

And the page on Jett Rocket talks about the texture layers on the character of Jett himself, who I never said was bumpmapped. They never talked about, say, texturing the bumpy sand.

Any texture effect can make something look bumpy. The basic purpose of all texture effects is to give defintion where there is none like the emobossed brick wall in the basement of Luigi's Mansion on the GC. Shiny is not embossed. Embossed is embossed. Its looks kind of gelatinus and silky like a christmas tree ornament. Basic normal mapping produces an effect that tends looks kind of like clay while basic bump mapping produces an effect that tends looks kind of like plastic.

Everything in the game looks shiny because of the use of global lighting.

Battallion Wars 2 used bump mapping.

 

Tournament of Legends used extensive normal mapping


Once again. The textures in Mario Galaxy 2 were ripped and it is a known fact that they used normal mapping. Its not a guess or an opinion.



curl-6 on 30 July 2012
lilbroex said:
curl-6 said:

On examination, the dragon is definitely EMBM. That look of a shiny surface made to look bumpy through distortion of the shininess is characteristic of the effect. If it was normal mapped the rim light would be affected by the "bumps," but it isn't.

And the page on Jett Rocket talks about the texture layers on the character of Jett himself, who I never said was bumpmapped. They never talked about, say, texturing the bumpy sand.

Any texture effect can make something look bumpy. The basic purpose of all texture effects is to give defintion where there is none like the emobossed brick wall in the basement of Luigi's Mansion on the GC. Shiny is not embossed. Embossed is embossed. Its looks kind of gelatinus and silky. Basic normal mapping produces an effect that tends looks kind of like clay while basic bump mapping produces and effect that tends looks kind of like plastic.

Everything in the game looks shiny because of the use of global lighting.

Battallion Wars 2 used bump mapping.

 

Tournament of Legends used extensive normal mapping


Once again. I told you that the textures in Mario Galaxy 2 were ripped and it is known for a fact that they used normal mapping. Its not a guess or an opinion.


Embossing is a type of bumpmapping, a simple type that doesn't factor in realtime lighting and doesn't really work at low viewing angles.

What Battallion Wars 2 is showing there is EMBM, another type of bumpmapping, more advanced. Again, easily identifiable by its frequent appearance as a "bumpy" distortion of a reflective surface.

And IF that's normal mapping in Tournament of Legends, it's some of the poorest I've ever seen.

Can you provide a link to the normal mapped Galaxy 2 assets?



zarx on 30 July 2012
curl-6 said:

Embossing is a type of bumpmapping, a simple type that doesn't factor in realtime lighting and doesn't really work at low viewing angles.

What Battallion Wars 2 is showing there is EMBM, another type of bumpmapping, more advanced. Again, easily identifiable by its frequent appearance as a "bumpy" distortion of a reflective surface.

And IF that's normal mapping in Tournament of Legends, it's some of the poorest I've ever seen.

Can you provide a link to the normal mapped Galaxy 2 assets?

Dewy's Adventure used Normal Mapping on bosses,  http://wii.ign.com/articles/760/760682p2.html 



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