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Forums - Politics Discussion - Concept of Going to Heaven...

most people want reward! thats why they do good.....



 

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aikohualda said:
most people want reward! thats why they do good.....


I do what's right because it's the right thing to do. If I'm wrong in the end, then I'm wrong, but I sure as hell am not going to let reward or punishment influence my decisions because that begets greed and subjectivity.



theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:

The problem is... your belief isn't particularly well suited to fact.  As i've been trying to tell you.

Make whatever arguement you want, however don't use Kohlberg for it.. because Kohlberg doesn't support it.

In the least.

Explain, because all the counter arguments have been your own interpretations of what I've been saying and not what I've been saying. Civil Unions is a higher stage of morality. The counterargument is rooted in reward/punishment. Even if you still think that I believe someone using stage 1 can't be a stage 5, it is still the proposition that christianity still assists in using stage 1 to solve problems.

Define higher stage of morality.

If you mean a higher stage of morality due to Kohlberg.   You are wrong about Kohlberg.

1)  Kohlberg's work does not judge ones choices... only the rationale for choosing said choice.  Civil Unions vs no Civil Unions are equal in the eyes of Kohlberg when it comes to moral reasoning.  Again, look at the druggist dielma.  The person is not judged for saying if it was ethical to steal the drugs... ONLY on why they if he should or not.

2)  Kohlberg's stages were definite.  There is no "using a different stage" versus the stage you are in.  The most one could regress in reasoning was one level... and only if they hadn't fully integrated the level above it.

3) Kohlberg often attributed people making that mistake by misunderstanding the 5th stage as one of the earlier stages due to the charactiristics of the 5th stage which largely involve creating your own personal ethical code and elevating that above the "law of the land."  Kohlberg would most likely suggest you are misunderstanding the points of those you are talking to.  First level moral reasoning just doesn't happen to adults according to him.

4) Western societies (christian ones) were seen as progressive faster then non christian societies.  Including ones that weren't based on nonsecular philosphies. (EX. China.)

Sorry I got your point wrong.  You were just misusing Kohlberg's research more then i thought you were.

 

Now if the above all sounds like awful bullshit to you... you now understand why I think Kohlberg's stages of moral development suck.  Regardless.... that is what Kohlbergs work says.



Or to put it another way.

For someone to be against gay marriage because of Level 1 moral reasoning.

If you asked them "Is there ANYTHING wrong with being gay except for the fact that god hates it?"

Their answer would have to be. "No."



theprof00 said:
aikohualda said:
most people want reward! thats why they do good.....


I do what's right because it's the right thing to do. If I'm wrong in the end, then I'm wrong, but I sure as hell am not going to let reward or punishment influence my decisions because that begets greed and subjectivity.


Here's is a question.

How often do you feel bad after doing something good for someone else?

Helping others does give psychic rewards that are pretty hard to remove from altruism.



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Kasz216 said:
Or to put it another way.

For someone to be against gay marriage because of Level 1 moral reasoning.

If you asked them "Is there ANYTHING wrong with being gay except for the fact that god hates it?"

Their answer would have to be. "No."

The problem is that I don't think they really get asked or ask themselves that question.



theprof00 said:
Kasz216 said:
Or to put it another way.

For someone to be against gay marriage because of Level 1 moral reasoning.

If you asked them "Is there ANYTHING wrong with being gay except for the fact that god hates it?"

Their answer would have to be. "No."

The problem is that I don't think they really get asked or ask themselves that question.

Only one way to find out.  I have a feeling you'd be surprised though.

I think... you may not be fully understanding the pure narroweness of stage one.

For example... if you were to say.

"Is there ANYTHING wrong with being gay except for the fact that god has said so."

and they were to say

"Yes it's unnatural"

That alone would blow well past stage one... even if the specific reason they think it's unnatural is because God says so.

That it is unnatural would be completely irrelevent to a stage 1 thinker.  Natural or unnatural is meaningless.  All that matters is that people shouldn't get gay married, because they would go to hell... and going to hell means they are a bad person.    Not even the punishment matters here.  Just that gay marriage is breaking a law... and breaking ANY law is bad, because you are breaking a law.  Heck, not even it being God would matter.

To a stage 2 thinker... it being unnatural is ALSO irrelvent.  The reason you wouldn't want to have gay marriage is because if you got gay married you'd go to hell. 

It's worth noting, that Stage 1 or Stage 2 person with the viewpoint that they shouldn't gay marry someone likely wouldn't give a damn about Gay marriage being legal in the first place because it doesn't effect them.  If you asked them if it was legal or not.  They might say No, simply because they wouldn't do it... and that would be it.  They cerataintly wouldn't be in huge picket lines trying to deny other people from getting gay married.   (Outside of Stage 2 people who believe God punishes people as a whole for an individuals wiked acts and are afraid another Katrina or 9/11 will hit.  I'm looking at you Pat Roberts(on?).  Note they have other reasons why they are against it as well.)

 

To a Stage 3 person... Unnatural still wouldn't come in... from a religious point of view.  Afterall, what would matter in this case is that God expects us to not gay marry... so we should not gay marry.  That's it.

 

To a Stage 4 Being unnatural doesn't matter... because stage 4 has to do with Law and order.  You shouldn't gay marry because it's God's law... and other people may gay marry aftewords.  (Although such reasoning can be also be stage 5 depending on why you think it's a bad thing society "degrades".)


It being unnatural is in fact a Stage 5 position... you are using a justification not based on law... but based on your own conceived notions of what is natural or unnatural. (Even if said notions were influenced by the church.)



kaneada said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
Its only a bribe if the "creator" intended their laws in their religion to be a bribe.

So God created Adam, the first human, he gave him the first law. Do you think that the "Law" he has given is bribery? IE: Do not eat a fruit from the Forbidden tree?

If this Law is indeed a bribery..

What has God got to gain when he bribes Adam that he just created and that he just gave the ability of freewill?

Control over his creations. Rules, at their most basic, are nothing more than set controls. That's not to say that some rules aren't valid and perhaps universal truths; but all rules have a manipulative component to them. The real question here, is why give the gift of freewill? The idea and principle behind freewill is that it creates an autonomous individual that of which makes its own decisions independently. To impose rules against that freewill, with the steep penalties for not following those rules; to include the loaded decision to relinquish that freewill to the rules set by another person or deity makes it a manipulation due to the fact that both the action of giving freewill and subsequently the rules that directly oppose the principle of freewill a contradiction.

So one of the following could be assumed:

A)    A)  God is not all knowing.

B) God is manipulative.


So your saying why give free will if your just going to put some restrictions? Correct?

Well if God gave us total free will then there will be total Chaos. 

If God created us and didn't give us the ability of free will, there will be total and utter Order, essentailly we would be walking vegetables which would be illogical because we cannot be "judged fairly" between Heaven and Hell. 

You think as though giving us free will means 100% no restrictions, well what if I tell you Free will can co-exist with Laws and restrictions? We are still able to break those laws correct? E.g. 10 commandments? 



Yay!!!

Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

The Bible clearly states that there is an afterlife which is based on your actions on Earth.


He is saying that the concept of an afterlife is flawed. God should not say "Do good because it is the way to heaven." God should say, "Do good because it is the right thing to do." With the existence of heaven, people will act good because they want a reward, not necessarily because they are of good character.

which reminds me of a quote someone had in their signature a while back:

"A man who does good because of fear of going to Hell is both a coward and is of weak character. A person who does good because he knows it is the right thing to do. That is the man I want to be" or something like that.

God wants humans to be nice to one another. He stated it several times in the Bible to "Treat your neighbour as yourself" (or something like that.) How is that bribery? He says both things.

@OP This isn't Political Discussion by the way. It should be Off-Topic.



NintendoPie said:
Jay520 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

The Bible clearly states that there is an afterlife which is based on your actions on Earth.


He is saying that the concept of an afterlife is flawed. God should not say "Do good because it is the way to heaven." God should say, "Do good because it is the right thing to do." With the existence of heaven, people will act good because they want a reward, not necessarily because they are of good character.

which reminds me of a quote someone had in their signature a while back:

"A man who does good because of fear of going to Hell is both a coward and is of weak character. A person who does good because he knows it is the right thing to do. That is the man I want to be" or something like that.

God wants humans to be nice to one another. He stated it several times in the Bible to "Treat your neighbour as yourself" (or something like that.) How is that bribery? He says both things.

@OP This isn't Political Discussion by the way. It should be Off-Topic.



Why are you quoting me? The OP said that.