Andrespetmonkey said: Slimebeast said: Andrespetmonkey said: @Bolded All of the big 3 have their vocal minorities who'd be considered "fanboys," I think it's unfair the way you 1: dictate when quality is or isn't there and 2: group all Sony fans into the sony fanboy group. I would consider myself a Sony fan, or rather a Playstation fan (among other platforms), but that doesn't mean I blindly love everything a first party studio develops and I'm fanatical about all things Sony.   Why does John Marston "slay these characters"? I'm interested in this, I mean I just finished Undead nightmare and I can't get enough of Marston, but I find this an odd thing to say. As good as Marston is (or most RS protagonists for that matter), I don't see how Joel can be seen as a lesser character yet. We don't know that much about the characters in TLOU and what we do know and we've seen has indicated nothing less than fleshed out and intriguing imo.  I might present it in a brutish way, but it's my opinion that right now with The Last of Us we see a lot of fanboy-based overrating and praise going on. I wish I could express it in a more elegant way. I do not say Sony fans or any fans love and praise everything from their respective companies, but they overrate it.  Lol... here's a quote from you: "Sony fans praise everything from Sony" So which is it? You're making contradictory posts. That's a key element in being a fan or fanboy. John Marston's character has so many elements of a great character. Elements that generally speaking appeal to a lot of people. He is extremely charismatic, has perfect portions of warmth, sympathy, nastyness, irony and humour, among other character feats. Much like Nathan Drake. I think you're over-rating both Marston and Drake here, but I appreciate the explanation of your opinion. Joel seems to be the opposite. Why? I find his character really interesting, he's the opposite to the typical action hero. He isn't there to save the day, he's a "violent thug, a brutal killer and a tortuer," yet he is our protagonist, and this is isn't in a light-hearted game like GTA or Saint's row where this isn't a big deal, this is a game with a very serious and bleak tone. That alone makes him a very compelling character to me, and ironically he shares similarities with John Marston. From what we've seen, his voice actor is doing a good job, too.

You bring up excellent stuff about Joel's character possibly being interesting after all. He might be the silent hero, slightly up-tight and stiff but still mostly down-to earth and humble, serious but still non-pretentious. And that's an appealing character type too.

But from what we've seen one can interpret also the possibility of a very serious and know-it-all jerk without any kind of self-criticism, humor or blink in the eye.

o_O.Q said: Slimebeast said: o_O.Q said: Slimebeast said: o_O.Q said: Slimebeast said: Andrespetmonkey said: Slimebeast said: Yeah I am bitter because my fellow gamers are eating crap when they could eat milk and honey. Objectively speaking, John Marston slays these characters. I truly do not believe people actually feel a yota for these two, they just pretend they do because they want so badly to have another great Sony game. The biggest reason you hear all praise on the internet for Ellie and this game is because it's a Sony exclusive. That's not objective. Are you serious? You really think people don't genuinely like Nathan Drake or Sully for example? You're actually deluded if you think that.  I'm not sold on Ellie yet, but Joel sounds very compelling to me. Why does John Marston "slay these characters"? I didn't say that. Because Sony fans praise everything from Sony doesn't mean that they can't genuinely like some things. Nathan Drake, Sully and the women in Uncharted are genuinly likable, top quality characters. With other products, when the quality isn't right there, Sony fans praise it anyway. And it's that phenomenon that I hate. It's called fanboyism. who determines that the quality isn't there? i'd have to assume its you... and if thats true does that mean that you're calling anyone who doesn't agree with your views on games a fanboy? oh wait sorry i forgot you basically said that here "Yeah I am bitter because my fellow gamers are eating crap when they could eat milk and honey" No. Re-read and come back. ok i'll try to understand who determines whats crap and whats milk and honey? We all try to determine what is good quality and what is bad quality. With lots of room for personal preferences, but still acknowledging there exists such a thing as universal quality. But to do this we first have to shake off our biases. One such bias is to be a fanboy. I used to be an Xbox and even a Microsoft fanboy (I am to a little tiny extent still, but not that much.). In those days you couldn't get an honest advice or honest recommenadtion from me regarding Xbox games, because not only was I lying to myself by seeing more quality than actual was there but I also acted in the interest of the product I loved, namely distorted the truth. That's the truth. i agree with what you're saying here but beyond that you cannot then take what you individually consider as good and bad and arrogantly apply those views to everyone else for the obvious reason that as humans we naturally have differing views on things  i am not a clone of you so i'm not going to see eye to eye with you on every issue or see quality in the things you see quality in and vice versa

It's a difficult issue to discuss, the issue of taste.

I don't want to be the dictator and say what is quality and what is not, that's up to us together to determine and that's the reason why we exchange opinions, but here I got myself into a situation where I had to sort of prove that it's not illegitimate to speak of objective quality versus subjective.

Slimebeast said:

" But from what we've seen one can interpret also the possibility of a very serious and know-it-all jerk without any kind of self-criticism, humor or blink in the eye."

What?!? What are you using to form this opinion? What video has implied that he's a know-it-all jerk?

Jay520 said: Slimebeast, how do you know this game has little gameplay, poor characters, etc already?

How do you know the new Hitman will be God's gift to mankind?

I have studied the gameplay video (and discussed it in another thread where we discovered how scripted this game is), and I know Naughty Dog's record and I also know the current trends in making TV-series (why I mentioned The Walking Dead).

It's not a wild guess to predict that Ellie for example, will have the role of this tough little girl with immense amounts of self-integrity (the strong female. Movies aren't allowed to have weak females anymore) and who will deliver the clever and sarcastic comments in the game. Bla bla bla, I'm not good at describing character feats but you get the picture. Those videos while small still give so much away if you analyze them.

Slimebeast said: Fuck, here I'm trying to paint a good analogy with Clint Eastwood versus Steven Seagal but I get nothing back. So objectively speaking you can't say Clint Eastwood is a better actor than Steven Seagal, it's all just up to personal preference? That's BS in my opinion and that's not how critics of art work.

Its a extremely bad analogy. Your comparing actors, it dose not translate at all here in your petty augment. Its about the characters of Joel and who ever is that guy from RR. There back story, actions and consequences, emotions, ect. 

 

CGI-Quality said: Humor us, what discoevery did you make on how "scritped" (the new word/fad to use in gaming) the game is? Also, what's Naughty Dog's record? In one breath you praise the Uncharted characters, while in the other, claim that your analysis reveals Joel to be a "know-it-all" jerk. All you're doing at this point is making wild guesses with little to nothing to validate it.

That would be his second time he contradicted himself. 

Slimebeast said: Jay520 said: Slimebeast, how do you know this game has little gameplay, poor characters, etc already? How do you know the new Hitman will be God's gift to mankind? I have studied the gameplay video (and discussed it in another thread where we discovered how scripted this game is), and I know Naughty Dog's record and I also know the current trends in making TV-series (why I mentioned The Walking Dead). It's not a wild guess to predict that Ellie for example, will have the role of this tough little girl with immense amounts of self-integrity (the strong female. Movies aren't allowed to have weak females anymore) and who will deliver the clever and sarcastic comments in the game. Bla bla bla, I'm not good at describing character feats but you get the picture. Those videos while small still give so much away if you analyze them.

The Hitman franchise bas been around for 10 years and the developers have said that they will stay true to the series roots. That's why.

You can't just watch a five minute video and form an analysis based off of that. That's not how character development works. Character development can take a long time to truly flesh out each person. You have no idea how complex Joel could be. If I were to take a random clip of John Marston, would we be able to form an actual depiction of the character? No.

As for the gameplay, we've seen what...one video. That's it. And actually, we determined that the scene wasn't scripted. I don't know where you are getting your info.

Jay520 said: Slimebeast said: Jay520 said: Slimebeast, how do you know this game has little gameplay, poor characters, etc already? How do you know the new Hitman will be God's gift to mankind? I have studied the gameplay video (and discussed it in another thread where we discovered how scripted this game is), and I know Naughty Dog's record and I also know the current trends in making TV-series (why I mentioned The Walking Dead). It's not a wild guess to predict that Ellie for example, will have the role of this tough little girl with immense amounts of self-integrity (the strong female. Movies aren't allowed to have weak females anymore) and who will deliver the clever and sarcastic comments in the game. Bla bla bla, I'm not good at describing character feats but you get the picture. Those videos while small still give so much away if you analyze them. The Hitman franchise bas been around for 10 years and the developers have said that they will stay true to the series roots. That's why. You can't just watch a five minute video and form an analysis based off of that. That's not how character development works. Character development can take a long time to truly flesh out each person. As for the gameplay, we've seen what...one video. That's it. And actually, we determined that the scene wasn't scripted. I don't know where you are getting your info.

About Joel's possible character I described earlier, it was mostly a wibe I got from the movies and gameplay clip. I might well have projected far too much into it though and read into things that weren't there, but we'll see.

The gameplay, the whole 7 minutes weren't scripted since you can move your guy and choose where to go among other inputs by the player. But you know what a script in video game design is, right? All games use scripts. Some more, some less. The Last of us, just like Uncharted, uses A LOT of scripts. For details I refer you back to that thread. I already feel the heat here enough as it is lol.

Slimebeast said: Jay520 said: Slimebeast said: Jay520 said: Slimebeast, how do you know this game has little gameplay, poor characters, etc already? How do you know the new Hitman will be God's gift to mankind? I have studied the gameplay video (and discussed it in another thread where we discovered how scripted this game is), and I know Naughty Dog's record and I also know the current trends in making TV-series (why I mentioned The Walking Dead). It's not a wild guess to predict that Ellie for example, will have the role of this tough little girl with immense amounts of self-integrity (the strong female. Movies aren't allowed to have weak females anymore) and who will deliver the clever and sarcastic comments in the game. Bla bla bla, I'm not good at describing character feats but you get the picture. Those videos while small still give so much away if you analyze them. The Hitman franchise bas been around for 10 years and the developers have said that they will stay true to the series roots. That's why. You can't just watch a five minute video and form an analysis based off of that. That's not how character development works. Character development can take a long time to truly flesh out each person. As for the gameplay, we've seen what...one video. That's it. And actually, we determined that the scene wasn't scripted. I don't know where you are getting your info. About Joel's possible character I described earlier, it was mostly a wibe I got from the movies and gameplay clip. I might well have projected far too much into it though and read into things that weren't there, but we'll see. The gameplay, the whole 7 minutes weren't scripted since you can move your guy and choose where to go among other inputs by the player. But you know what a script in video game design is, right? All games use scripts. Some more, some less. The Last of us, just like Uncharted, uses A LOT of scripts. For details I refer you back to that thread. I already feel the heat here enough as it is lol.

perhaps it was scripted. But not to the extent that it deserves to be called an interactive movie. Since you are the one applying the term. Please, explain how The Last of Us is an interactive movie. Surely, you have evidence to back up your claim. And I want specific details and examples. Not some vague predictions based on what you think might happen.

CGI-Quality said: Slimebeast said: Jay520 said: Slimebeast, how do you know this game has little gameplay, poor characters, etc already? How do you know the new Hitman will be God's gift to mankind? I have studied the gameplay video (and discussed it in another thread where we discovered how scripted this game is), and I know Naughty Dog's record and I also know the current trends in making TV-series (why I mentioned The Walking Dead). It's not a wild guess to predict that Ellie for example, will have the role of this tough little girl with immense amounts of self-integrity (the strong female. Movies aren't allowed to have weak females anymore) and who will deliver the clever and sarcastic comments in the game. Bla bla bla, I'm not good at describing character feats but you get the picture. Those videos while small still give so much away if you analyze them. Humor us, what disccovery did you make on how "scritped" (the new word/fad to use in gaming) the game is? Also, what's Naughty Dog's record? In one breath you praise the Uncharted characters, while in the other, claim that your analysis reveals Joel to be a "know-it-all" jerk. All you're doing at this point is making wild guesses with little to nothing to validate it.

lol CGI, "humor us". No, Im not going to humor you again today. I already made a lengthy argument in that thread around E3.

Jay520 in his question included gameplay, so that's what I refered to when I said I am basing my judgement on ND's track record (and obviously I am refering to Uncharted).

You might be correct to cath a hypcrysis by me though. I am aware of that. I know that ND's track record of creating universally lovable and appealing characters is superb.

So why would I use their track record to their disadvantage in one area and ignore it when it's an advantage? I don't know, maybe because I am biased and truly a hater lol. No seriously, while we've been writing in this thread I have thought more and more that I actually should have trust in ND that the characters of Last of us too will be top-notch since ND has such a great track record in that area.