IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: It seems like you assume that religious practicing increases your chances of entering heaven. That is what doesn't make sense to me, not wheather practicing brings joy or not. No, I don't assume that. In fact, in my second sentence, I assume that the opposite is true for argument's sake. I said that assuming religious practicing doesn't increase your chances of getting to heaven, it still makes sense because people enjoy doing it. And since you're not challenging whether that makes sense, I'll assume you don't believe it doesn't make sense. In such case, you're problem is with (some) people's perception of religious practice, not religious practice in and of itself. Well, religious practice in itself demands people in order to occur. My "problem" is that they think that following exactly what the Bible says would be necessary to enter heaven when it in actuality only may be good or evil actions that matters. In other words: Burning the Bible would be a good thing. People don't need it to commit good actions, but they can use it to justify certain harmful activities. And the Bible is the foundation of all Abrahamic religious practicing (well, and the Koran for the Muslims).

Exactly, it's (some) people's ignorant understanding OF religious practice that you have a problem with. If people knew the true understanding of religious practice, then you wouldn't have a problem with it. And the fact is not everyone practices religion because they think they have to, plenty of people practice religion because they want to, so it does make sense. Just some people don't understand it.

Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Well, religious practice in itself demands people in order to occur. My "problem" is that they think that following exactly what the Bible says would be necessary to enter heaven when it in actuality only may be good or evil actions that matters. In other words: Burning the Bible would be a good thing. People don't need it to commit good actions, but they can use it to justify certain harmful activities. And the Bible is the foundation of all Abrahamic religious practicing (well, and the Koran for the Muslims). Exactly, it's (some) people's ignorant understanding OF religious practice that you have a problem with. If people knew the true understanding of religious practice, then you wouldn't have a problem with it. And the fact is not everyone practices religion because they think they have to, plenty of people practice religion because they want to, so it does make sense. Just some people don't understand it.

People who actually want to practice this sort of religion do it because they want a comfortable afterlife. If they don't believe in an afterlife then they have the wrong faith.

I will repeat myself: Removing this practice altogether would be the best course of action since it won't affect your afterlife anyway. Just teach people to be good and you will achieve maximum result. Being a good person is not a religious practice.

lilc64 said: Lol i dont see how people dont believe in some form of intelligent design, it blows my mind that people believe it all started from a spark in the cosmos. Everyday i learn something new about the way the human body or even an animal functions and that proves to me we were designed. The last organ i was taught about was the thyroid and everything it does, if you can read all of the functions these small organs preform and believe we were not designed i take my hat off to you sir.

That's if you only look at the 'amazing' and the 'beautiful' things in our world, but you have to look at the world in its entirity.
I think Neal tyson does a good job of explaining why the world isn't designed intelligently.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Well, religious practice in itself demands people in order to occur. My "problem" is that they think that following exactly what the Bible says would be necessary to enter heaven when it in actuality only may be good or evil actions that matters. In other words: Burning the Bible would be a good thing. People don't need it to commit good actions, but they can use it to justify certain harmful activities. And the Bible is the foundation of all Abrahamic religious practicing (well, and the Koran for the Muslims). Exactly, it's (some) people's ignorant understanding OF religious practice that you have a problem with. If people knew the true understanding of religious practice, then you wouldn't have a problem with it. And the fact is not everyone practices religion because they think they have to, plenty of people practice religion because they want to, so it does make sense. Just some people don't understand it. 1. People who actually want to practice this sort of religion do it because they want a comfortable afterlife. If they don't believe in an afterlife then they have the wrong faith. 2. I will repeat myself: Removing this practice altogether would be the best course of action since it won't affect your afterlife anyway. Just teach people to be good and you will achieve maximum result. Being a good person is not a religious practice.

1. Maybe for a portion of people. But not all of them. Some know that they don't have to do it. They just do it because it makes them happy that they are making the Lord happy. If you love someone, wouldn't you want to make them happy? That's exactly what a lot people do when practicing religion. It's not all about just doing things so God can reward you later on. It's because it gives people genuine joy in their actions.

2. I'm not sure what you mean by 'best course of action'. Again, all people don't do this for a reward when they die. They do it because they enjoy bringing joy to the one they love (The Lord).

Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: 1. People who actually want to practice this sort of religion do it because they want a comfortable afterlife. If they don't believe in an afterlife then they have the wrong faith. 2. I will repeat myself: Removing this practice altogether would be the best course of action since it won't affect your afterlife anyway. Just teach people to be good and you will achieve maximum result. Being a good person is not a religious practice. 1. Maybe for a portion of people. But not all of them. Some know that they don't have to do it. They just do it because it makes them happy that they are making the Lord happy. If you love someone, wouldn't you want to make them happy? That's exactly what a lot people do when practicing religion. It's not all about just doing things so God can reward you later on. It's because it gives people genuine joy in their actions. 2. I'm not sure what you mean by 'best course of action'. Again, all people don't do this for a reward when they die. They do it because they enjoy bringing joy to the one they love (The Lord).

I never said that it makes no sense to practice religion for the sake of joy, but don't fool yourself: Every Christian, Jew and Muslim fear hell and are willing to do anything to avoid it. Praying may be one of those things, circumcising their children may be another, but they all have the same goal.

It brings joy because they feel safe from the Devil.

PDF said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said:  And just like asking God for help, it gives you nothing but self-pleasure; an illusion that God is extra close to you since you are reaching out to Him.  . That is a opinion you are passing on as fact.  You state it assuming God does not exist.  It is an unfair and bias statement, if you are looking for a real discussion you should avoid remarks like that. As for your hypothetical situation, If God is real as i do beleive, he still speaks today.  All it takes is someone willing to listen and the faith would be reborn.  I come to this belief that he still speaks today through personal experience and not being told by someone that he does.  I do beleive some practices are silly, and are likely due to human error in trying to read into what the almighty wants. Your arguments states that God is picking winners and losers based on where we are born, that is something that is a troubling question.  My answer is that he isn't picking the winners and losers, we are.  As humans with free will, we decide what we beleive and what our children will be raised to beleive.  I also go with  badgenome answer.

2 words prove it

 

simple as that. no one can

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: 1. People who actually want to practice this sort of religion do it because they want a comfortable afterlife. If they don't believe in an afterlife then they have the wrong faith. 2. I will repeat myself: Removing this practice altogether would be the best course of action since it won't affect your afterlife anyway. Just teach people to be good and you will achieve maximum result. Being a good person is not a religious practice. 1. Maybe for a portion of people. But not all of them. Some know that they don't have to do it. They just do it because it makes them happy that they are making the Lord happy. If you love someone, wouldn't you want to make them happy? That's exactly what a lot people do when practicing religion. It's not all about just doing things so God can reward you later on. It's because it gives people genuine joy in their actions. 2. I'm not sure what you mean by 'best course of action'. Again, all people don't do this for a reward when they die. They do it because they enjoy bringing joy to the one they love (The Lord). I never said that it makes no sense to practice religion for the sake of joy, but don't fool yourself: Every Christian, Jew and Muslim fear hell and are willing to do anything to avoid it. Praying may be one of those things, circumcising their children may be another, but they all have the same goal. It brings joy because they feel safe from the Devil.

Your logic doesn't make sense. You're saying: A.) Religious people fear Hell and will do anything to avoid it. And B.) Religious people practice religion. These two statements are true but it's your connection of the two which is illogical: "religious practice is one of the things they do to avoid Hell." That doesn't make sense. You're simply stating that religious practice is used to as a tool to avoid Hell, but you provide no logical connection between the two. You're not saying how 'A' causes 'B'.

Regardless of if you can prove that religious practice is generally used to avoid Hell, which you can't, that still wouldn't be the absolute rule. Fact is: There are people that practice religion because they enjoy it. You've already said that what these people are doing isn't nonsensible. So you're saying that religious practice in and of itself isn't nonsensible. It's the people that believe that religious practice is necessary to enter heaven who are nonsensible.

IIIIITHE1IIIII said: quigontcb said: So you invented atheism/agnosticism? Or did you, by chance, happen to hear about it from someone else? This must be a joke, right? We are all born atheist. We can later fill in the inexplainable things in life using inexplainable matter such as gods, making us religious.

No one is born an atheist - because in order to be an atheist you have to have a concept of the theos (God or Gods) and then reject the belief in them.

However, people are born agnostic - that is, they do not 'know' the (or have a belief in an) answer to the question of existence.

The question in the main topic seems to be directed at Conservative Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Religious pluralism is not an issue for Liberal branches of Christianity because we accept other faiths and mystical practices as viable paths. Other religions are essentially the same as being German, French, or Italian, or Chinese; all viable ways of life. Essentially the mystical path is open to anyone who has the ability; and religion is a manmade framework which differs from culture to culture, language to language, and often community to community, but they are all means to lead to the same thing - we can call it the Sacred, we can call it God, etc...

A conservative theist would see religion as purely divine, and of course, they strugle with the question of religious pluralism.

@The1

I will explain it to you succinctly. People are religious, because it gives them the impression that they are in control. Humans like to be in control of their situation, and are uncomfortable when they are faced with something that they cannot control. To be blunt when someone doesn't have control they are usually afraid. So it is understandable why a person may buy into any explanation that would alleviate that fear. Even if they know it to be fabricated.

God is basically humanity anthropomorphizing the uncontrollable aspect of nature. By giving things like death a face and mind. Humans believe they can control their circumstances by making an appeal to another person that may have control of such things. This isn't actually a bad assumption. It is actually the only rational option given the situation. In life we learn that if we cannot do something ourselves. We can always ask for help from family, friends, or community to help us out. We have only two valid options in dealing with fears.

We can follow our instincts to deal with it internally, or deal with it externally be seeking the help of others in our community. It isn't a great leap to see how people who failed to find help in the community would make the very rational deduction that there is one person they could reason with that they couldn't reach. Once you place the fear back under control by saying since I control so much there must be someone who controls it all. Your fear is then sated. It stops being your problem sort of.

I mean sort of, because humans think in terms of reciprocity. We don't genuinely expect to get something for not doing anything. We cannot accept that our imaginary friend is just going to save us from mortality or cruelty out of pure altruism. We expect that we need to compensate that person. It goes deeper then that however. You see we need to do something, because we want to control the relationship. If we are giving the imaginary person any kind of reward then we are of a right to expect a reward ourselves. Thus you get religious practices. A structure that we use to negotiate rewards.

Religion is the opiate of the masses. It lets a lot of people go through their lives without dealing with the fears, and doubts that accompany a life that doesn't play by our rules. Nature doesn't value human lives, and death will take us all. Religion lets us have a sense of control. When we may not have any control at all. Religious practices allow us to negotiate with our reality. Which is what we are hardwired to do.

Let me be clear this is not in itself a stupid thing to do. Everyone does this whether they are religious or not. The truth is we all need a way to grapple with the arbitrary nature of reality. Some want to go with some structured well contrived faith, and some people just create their own system. Personally I am an Atheist, but I am no less guilty. I work under my own system that is no less rational then a imaginary friend. I always find myself working under the delusion that there is something like Karma balancing the books.

So I often go out of my way to help people that I don't know, and are going to place a burden on me. In the vain hope that maybe I can bank some good Karma. I don't know what I am going to buy with my fake cash, or who is going to come to collect on my debts. Intellectually I know there is nobody going to do either, but I need to do it, because I need to think what I do matters. That my life does have meaning, because it would be pointless to live the other way.

Anyway don't tell me that you aren't playing the same games in your own head, because I am not going to buy the notion that your purely nihilistic. I have yet to meet anybody who doesn't believe in anything at all. Even if it is just the blind roll of the dice.

P.S.

I am getting real tired of the discussion involving circumcisions. I don't know what the deal is with Europeans, and this obsession some of you have. Personally I suspect a lot of you are just insecure. You are too scared to have it done, and feel inadequate compared to those who have. I really don't care what it is either way. There are many good reasons to have it done, and it almost never has anything to do with religion. Don't make me bring out the laundry list of why it is better to have it done then not. In other words don't go there.

Jay520 said: IIIIITHE1IIIII said: I never said that it makes no sense to practice religion for the sake of joy, but don't fool yourself: Every Christian, Jew and Muslim fear hell and are willing to do anything to avoid it. Praying may be one of those things, circumcising their children may be another, but they all have the same goal. It brings joy because they feel safe from the Devil. Your logic doesn't make sense. You're saying: Religious people fear Hell. They'll do anything to avoid it. Religious people practice religion, thus, religious practice is one of the things they do to avoid Hell. That doesn't make sense. You're simply stating that religious practice is used to as a tool to avoid Hell, but you provide no logical connection between the two. Regardless of if you can prove that religious practice is generally used to avoid Hell, which you can't, that still wouldn't be the absolute rule. Fact is: There are people that practice religion because they enjoy it. You've already said that what these people are doing isn't nonsensible. So you're saying that religious practice in and of itself isn't nonsensible. It's the people that believe that religious practice is necessary to enter heaven who are nonsensible.

My logic does make sense. People fear hell and believe that they can avoid it by a sufficient amount of religious practicing. By removing religious practicing, you will also remove that unjustified fear.

That's right, I have already said that. Again, if you are questioning the thread title, I still think that it's justified. It doesn't provide all the info (because then it would be too long), but it does indeed inform every potential reader about the topic.

And, also again, most people do practice religion to please God, which they think will give them better odds on the judgement day. Not because it's a fun thing to do.