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Forums - Sony Discussion - Nintendo gets a pass Just because they're Nintendo That Sony Isn't Allowed To Have

Aielyn said:

EdHieron said:

 My argument is based on the only proper yardstick(s) that the industry has for measuring the quality of games.  And, the 360 and PS3 didn't have difficult times getting their fair share of higlhy rated games this gen (which is probabl why when the gen s over they will have a combined market share that is far higher than the Wii's.  You don't run around saying that movies that most fillm critics give 3 stars to are equal to or better than movies that they give 5 stars to do you?

The one and only yardstick that the industry has for measuring the quality of games is sales. Game ratings, even Metacritic/Gamerankings, are often used nowadays by the industry for measuring the "value" of games from the publisher's perspective... but then, those same publishers also routinely pay off reviewers.

You know why Nintendo titles typically get lower review scores? (you're expecting me to say moneyhats by Sony/MS, aren't you? - admit it, that's what you thought on reading that question). It's because reviewers are highly superficial, and judge games based on what they like, rather than trying to be at least somewhat objective. And since a lot of "hardcore" tended to like PS3/360 over Wii, whenever they were tasked with reviewing a Wii title, they inevitably gave it a lower score than it deserved, often because "it's not HD" (although not usually worded that way, it was clear from the review text).

What I find utterly hilarious is that, in a thread about giving Nintendo a pass, one of the arguments in FAVOUR of having given Nintendo a pass is that review scores were LOWER on Wii. Reviewers refused to give the Wii a pass.

Try having a look at the pattern of review scores on Wii titles. Let's try an example - Monster Hunter Tri. The game got two 100% reviews, 31 more 90%+ reviews, and another 27 that were greater than 80% (and one that was 77%, and one that was 75%). And then there were eight that were 70% or lower. How can a game get such a layout? Well, let's look at one of the two reviews that gave it 60% - the Gamestyle one. "The graphics and sound are decent if unspectacular for the Wii". "So it’s easy to get the impression that the game’s pretty worthless". "It’s also interesting to note that this is only the second Wii game that supports the WiiSpeak add-on" (not true).

Oh, but that's some niche review site, right? OK, Game Informer rated it 70%. "Environments and human characters are bland". Really? They're bland? As opposed to about 99% of all FPS titles nowadays, that you happily describe as having great graphics? You know what the best description for most modern FPSes is? "Brown and Grey".

But I'm sure that's just the case of Monster Hunter. It couldn't possible have happened with other games. Except it does. Oftentimes, you'll see phrases like "the graphics are good... for the Wii" or "It's a good game... for the Wii". The Telegraph reviewed Goldeneye 007 for the Wii (6/10), and said this: "... while it may be one of the better shooters on the Wii, that's not saying a lot". But here's the key description that makes my point: "... but without any of the polish or draw of the majority of FPS titles". Eurogamer gave it a 7/10, with phrases like "...but they are as muted as the game's environments" and "... the same can't be said of the Wii hardware itself, which at times struggles to keep up with the developer's vision". It's usually very slightly obscured, but not all that much so. And even as the Eurogamer (and the Telegraph) review keeps reiterating its similarity to Modern Warfare, almost as though it's a negative.

So let's look at what Eurogamer said about Modern Warfare on the Wii. "There's no denying that Modern Warfare remains one of the best shooters available, both in single and multiplayer, but releasing a technically crippled version two years later on Wii is a curious decision", and "... the game just doesn't feel at home on Nintendo's platform". Yeah, nice and objective, right?

So next time you want to claim that Nintendo was given a pass, try stopping and actually thinking about it. The fact is, people who didn't have a problem with the Wii not being a powerhouse are actually wondering why it never got a single pass from the gaming media.

EDIT: Even when discussing one of the highest-rated games of all time, Mario Galaxy, when talking about the graphics, IGN, for instance, feels it must describe them as "cutting edge (for the Wii)". This is the attitude that the entire gaming media took to it. They couldn't possibly call a Wii game good-looking, they had to describe it as "good-looking for the Wii". And it was the same with other elements, too - "good controls, for a Wii game", etc.

 

you beat me too it about reviewers automatically taking a point of because the game was not in HD. SOme even admitted it in their reviews lol.

Also controls was another one that was marked inconsitently between reviwers (ie how can majority say they are tight then a few say they are barely user friendly). Those who played the game for 10mins and hated it because it was SD and motion controls simple wrote they wish it was HD with classic controls.

Those who reviewed the game fully, appreciated the limits of the Wii and found the controls to be decent (if they were done decently) and not just dismissed because it was motion controls..



 

 

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leo-j said:
How in the world did this thread get over 100 replies..


Because, trolls like to bait and we like to bat it around.



Kresnik said:
KungKras said:
First off, the Wii is better for Nintendo fans than the Gamecube was, many times over. We got two 3D Marios, two Zeldas, a 2D Mario, a new DKC, a Metroid Prime game, a Paper Mario game, a 2D Wario platformer, two Kirby games, the Virtual Console allowing you to play all the classics you might have missed out on, a Mario Kart with online, and a few really great RPG's published by Nintendo.

In the eyes of a core-nintendo-fan that isn't a graphics whore, the Wii ROFLstomps the Gamecube.

If anyone got a free pass this gen it's Sony. Any other console released that way would have gone the way of the Saturn, 3DO, or Jaguar. But the bias towards them persisted into this gen which became their saving grace.

Also, I wonder why a lot of newly registred users showed up after e3 2012 to bash Nintendo, hmmm.


Was it better?  I'm genuinely interested now.  Gonna compare them side to side (for my own ease):

Wii / Gamecube:

3D Mario - 2 / 1

2D Mario - 1 / 0

Paper Mario - 1 / 1

Mario Kart - 1 / 1

Mario Party - 2 / 4

3D Zelda - 2 / 2

2D Zelda - 0 / 1

3D Metroid - 2 / 2

Pokemon - 1 / 2

Kirby - 2 / 0

Pikmin - 0 / 2

F-Zero - 0 / 1

Star Fox - 0 / 2

Battalion Wars - 1 / 1

Fire Emblem - 1 / 1

Super Smash Bros. - 1 / 1

WarioWare - 1 / 1

3D Wario - 0 / 1

2D Wario - 1 / 0

Donkey Kong - 1 / 1

Luigi - 0 / 1

 

By my count that's 20 for Wii, 26 for Gamecube.  Even if you take into account that not every Nintendo fan is going to like every one of those franchises, it's still not really 'many times over'.  

I'm glad you think the Wii is a good generation for Nintendo fans, I think it was too.  But I consider myself to be a somewhat 'core' Nintendo fan (I like most if not all of their first party franchises) and I think the Gamecube was much better.  Aside from new IP's like Pikmin, there were Star Fox AND F-Zero games, decent versions of a lot of their franchises (Double Dash, Melee etc.) and just a general 'catering to everything'.  The only thing they kind of abandoned that gen was 2D platformers (no Mario, no Wario, and an iffy DK game).  The Wii has been better for things like 2 exceptional quality 3D Mario games etc., but the lack of a Star Fox or F-Zero still gets me!

Well, I can frame it like this then. The core (Nintendo) games that were made were of a much better quality standard (and less gimmicky) on Wii than they were on Gamecube IMO. And judging from the sales of the Wii iterations, I think the market agrees with me.



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KungKras said:

Well, I can frame it like this then. The core (Nintendo) games that were made were of a much better quality standard (and less gimmicky) on Wii than they were on Gamecube IMO. And judging from the sales of the Wii iterations, I think the market agrees with me.


I'd say the core Mario games were much, much better on the Wii - absolutely.  I think Nintendo just tried so many different things on the Gamecube that they didn't on the Wii - Metroid Prime, Pikmin, Batallion Wars, Animal Crossing, Donkey Konga, a 3D pokemon RPG, 3D Wario, Luigi's Mansion etc. were all new franchises or new takes on old franchises.  They've played it safer with the Wii, releasing traditional sequels to all the popular games (2D Mario, Animal Crossing) and in a lot of cases reviving their older traditional franchises (Donkey Kong Country, Kirby), and adding motion controls to everything.  And I think the market reflects that more than anything, that Nintendo have stuck to what traditionally sells well.  Motion controls have been their innovation, rather than games.  

Also, 96 million Wii's to 22 million Gamecubes might have something to do with it to with it too.

Again, I respect it's your opinion and I have no problem with that, just pointing out that it's not as black-and-white as "Wii was better for Nintendo gamers".



WiiBox3 said:
leo-j said:
How in the world did this thread get over 100 replies..

Because, trolls like to bait and we like to bat it around.

Tomato, Tomahto; Piplup, Pet Monkey; Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo; Some like it Missionary, Some like it Butterfly, or simply 'bate it around



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@OP: You do realize that Nintendo's success this generation has less to do with what they did correctly and more to do with how monumental of a screw-up the PS3 was right? As a huge PS2 fan, I wanted an affordable system with a large variety of quality Japanese titles and the PS3 certainly disappointed when compared to its predecessor. Sony essentially laid down, died, and left the market open to their competitors. No company deserves to succeed when they release a system like the PS3. That being said, the Wii surpassed the success of the 360 due partially to small children, the elderly and "non-gamers" buying into the Wii novelty which is strange but nothing to get bent out of shape over. I would have preferred Nintendo to develop more original "core" games this generation like they did previously but anything is preferable to them continuing the slow decline into irrelevance that was occurring with the N64 and GameCube.



Kresnik said:

 


I'd say the core Mario games were much, much better on the Wii - absolutely.  I think Nintendo just tried so many different things on the Gamecube that they didn't on the Wii - Metroid Prime, Pikmin, Batallion Wars, Animal Crossing, Donkey Konga, a 3D pokemon RPG, 3D Wario, Luigi's Mansion etc. were all new franchises or new takes on old franchises.  They've played it safer with the Wii, releasing traditional sequels to all the popular games (2D Mario, Animal Crossing) and in a lot of cases reviving their older traditional franchises (Donkey Kong Country, Kirby), and adding motion controls to everything.  And I think the market reflects that more than anything, that Nintendo have stuck to what traditionally sells well.  Motion controls have been their innovation, rather than games.  

Also, 96 million Wii's to 22 million Gamecubes might have something to do with it to with it too.

Again, I respect it's your opinion and I have no problem with that, just pointing out that it's not as black-and-white as "Wii was better for Nintendo gamers".

Well, I think that we at least can agree that Wii was an excellent console for Nintendo gamers, unlike the picture of fan neglect that OP was trying to paint.



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Kresnik said:
KungKras said:

Well, I can frame it like this then. The core (Nintendo) games that were made were of a much better quality standard (and less gimmicky) on Wii than they were on Gamecube IMO. And judging from the sales of the Wii iterations, I think the market agrees with me.


I'd say the core Mario games were much, much better on the Wii - absolutely.  I think Nintendo just tried so many different things on the Gamecube that they didn't on the Wii - Metroid Prime, Pikmin, Batallion Wars, Animal Crossing, Donkey Konga, a 3D pokemon RPG, 3D Wario, Luigi's Mansion etc. were all new franchises or new takes on old franchises.  They've played it safer with the Wii, releasing traditional sequels to all the popular games (2D Mario, Animal Crossing) and in a lot of cases reviving their older traditional franchises (Donkey Kong Country, Kirby), and adding motion controls to everything.  And I think the market reflects that more than anything, that Nintendo have stuck to what traditionally sells well.  Motion controls have been their innovation, rather than games.  

Also, 96 million Wii's to 22 million Gamecubes might have something to do with it to with it too.

Again, I respect it's your opinion and I have no problem with that, just pointing out that it's not as black-and-white as "Wii was better for Nintendo gamers".


As you said Nintendo seemed to  try different things with traditional characters  in the Gamecube era, they also had Rare make a "Star Fox Adventure" game and the Gamecube era also saw them attempt new things with Donkey Kong including Donkey Konga and Donkey Kong Jungle Climber.  In comparson, I believe  they have played it much safer this gen.  Their Donkey Kong game was largely just a retread of Rare's original with much better graphics something they usually knock Sony games for having.

 It could just be the effect of losing Rare because,  unlike Naughty Dog for Sony,  Retro's efforts this gen just don't seem to have that WOW factor that Rare games had going in the N64 era and really there's only been a couple of Retro games this gen which if they really are in the same league as Rare was in the N64, there should have been more high quality exclusive efforts by Retro that would have  offset some of the lack of third party support.



DanneSandin said:
The funny thing is that Sony/MS fans gives the PS360 a pass - as much (if not even more so) as Nintendo fans. Nintendo were first with motion controls - and seeing the success they had, Sony and MS riped them off.
Kinect is a rip off that gets a pass from MS fans. MS really have gone after the casual since 2010 (or something) and got a pass for it.
Move is just like the Wiimote! It just looks more lika a dildo. And Sony fans gave it a pass.

You, Ed, really is a hipocrite if you won't bash MS/Sony for their sudden interest in casuals! And I would be a hypocrite to say that I don't want 3rd party on the Wii - of course I do, but that's the only mistake Nintendo made with the Wii: not having enough power in it so it could get ports. That and the fact Nintendo totally dropped the ball after 2010... But My point still stands: if Nintendo deserves a bash for going casual, then MS/Sony does so too - and even more so for mimmicking the Wii shamelessly, trying to get some casuals.

I cant speak for all SOny fans but as someone with both WIi and Move, I can tell you i critized Ninty not for going for the casuals, I saw that coming long before i bought WIi nothing wrong with that. But for their WIimote being so halfassed, it simply didnt work that well and did a crappy job of tracking movement. I bashed for releasing a shoddy product. I like Move cause the damn thing works as advertised, I dont care who came first last third tenth. All i care about is that it works.



oniyide said:
DanneSandin said:
The funny thing is that Sony/MS fans gives the PS360 a pass - as much (if not even more so) as Nintendo fans. Nintendo were first with motion controls - and seeing the success they had, Sony and MS riped them off.
Kinect is a rip off that gets a pass from MS fans. MS really have gone after the casual since 2010 (or something) and got a pass for it.
Move is just like the Wiimote! It just looks more lika a dildo. And Sony fans gave it a pass.

You, Ed, really is a hipocrite if you won't bash MS/Sony for their sudden interest in casuals! And I would be a hypocrite to say that I don't want 3rd party on the Wii - of course I do, but that's the only mistake Nintendo made with the Wii: not having enough power in it so it could get ports. That and the fact Nintendo totally dropped the ball after 2010... But My point still stands: if Nintendo deserves a bash for going casual, then MS/Sony does so too - and even more so for mimmicking the Wii shamelessly, trying to get some casuals.

I cant speak for all SOny fans but as someone with both WIi and Move, I can tell you i critized Ninty not for going for the casuals, I saw that coming long before i bought WIi nothing wrong with that. But for their WIimote being so halfassed, it simply didnt work that well and did a crappy job of tracking movement. I bashed for releasing a shoddy product. I like Move cause the damn thing works as advertised, I dont care who came first last third tenth. All i care about is that it works.


Yeah, Microsoft's gone way too casual for my liking ever since they first started talking about natal and how many sports entertainment shows you can watch on your xbox.  Sony hasn't done that to that extent and their top priority seems to be creating the best immersive gaming experiences if they change on that score, I will criticize them more for it.

 

One thing Kinect does demonstrate to me though is that Wii Sports sales numbers stem from the fact that it was a pack-in because you've seen a similar phenomenon with Kinect Adventures.