there is a misconception that arab's hate americans for just being american. this is complete rubbish. i am 100% sure that if america pulled all it's support for israel and tried to force it to share the whole country with arabs and treat this issue with a little less bias then people would be flooding the streets waving american flags beside their own, as opposed to burning them.

Edit: Ooops somebody already said almost the exact same thing!

 

superchunk said: TheBigFatJ said: The Israel-Palestine dispute is a lot more two-sided and confusing than you're making it sound. Palestine's desires aren't realistic, and their methods are barbaric. And even if the US wasn't pro-Israel, it wouldn't matter. Israel can stand on its own. History proved this. two-sided = true. unrealistic = false. Israel was created illegally and under racists conditions. It should not exist. However, it is recognized by the world and is obviously not going anywhere. Therefore at this point and time Palestinians should recognize Israel and try to move on for their own statehood. PA wants land back to the 1967 borders, basically all the land that was taken by means of war. According the the Geneva conventions and world law that is what should happen. PA wants to be able to return to their homes that were taken in all wars since Israel's creation. Again, world law and Geneva conventions agree. Personally, if the land was fully given back and Israel gave $$ in exchange for the homes I would think that they would for-go the Right of Return. What exactly is the mass of the PA asking for that is unrealistic? That the laws of this world be actually upheld? Granted there are those, Hamas, that want more and need to be realistic with themselves based on what has happened since 1948, but, for the last few years the Arabs as a coalition, including the PA, has agreed that if Israel moved itself completely back the the 'green line' of 1967 they all would have full normal ties with Israel. However, Israel refuses to follow international law and will continue to do so as long as it is backed by the US.   Oh, and I forgot your barbaric statement. It was touched upon by another poster, but I will just say that you really should read about the pre-Israeli Jewish terrorist organizations, Irgun and Stern Gang, that will give you all info you need to know where and how the current Palestinian groups learned to fight. For starters they completely wiped out a palestinian village of all people and animals just prior to Israel's creation. They bombed hotels and homes of British military personel in the Palestinian Province when it was under British control. Their tactics of the original terror are the reasons the British left and Israel officially formed. This is where Hamas and others learned that terror can work.

You lost me with this horrible statement.  The main man I've heard spouting that crap is Iran's leader, shortly before calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

Most people in Israel were born there, and see the land as theirs.  It's very similar to land claims by American indians.  Their ancestors were betrayed and abused by yours, but does that mean YOU should be held responsible? Of course not.

Israel should be more pro-active in trying to establish a Palestinian state, but any Palestinian that believes israel should not exist DOES have unrealistic (and inhuman) desires.  Furthermore, just as in many cases Israel takes risks with Palestinian civilians that it wouldn't take with it's own (and this is wrong), it is equally wrong for Palestinians to support suicide bombings against Israeli citizens.  At some point if Palestinians want to be taken seriously, they need to do what Egypt has done and support Israels right to exist.  If they do this, Israel will feel more comfortable, and will have no excuse not to push for a Palestinian state.

iberz said: there is a misconception that arab's hate americans for just being american. this is complete rubbish. i am 100% sure that if america pulled all it's support for israel and tried to force it to share the whole country with arabs and treat this issue with a little less bias then people would be flooding the streets waving american flags beside their own, as opposed to burning them.

Explain to me why the US should try to force Israel to share it's whole country with Arabs?  However Israel came into existence, most of it's Jewish citizens were born there, just as most Palistinians were born in Palestine NOT Israel.  This is what I don't get.  People like you claim that Israel is not sufficiently supporting Palestinians and their goal of creating a state, yet you go on to say that the Israeli state's sovereignty should be eradicated, or worse the state itself should be.

Anyone else feeling disturbed by how personally citizens of foreign countries take our domestic politics. They are our politicians we are electing them to represent us as much as you elect your politicians to represent you. Honestly I would love for our foreign policy to return to its roots of a hundred years ago. Back to the Monroe doctrine take care of the Americas, and let the rest of the world deal with itself. That was a sound philosophy.

Unfortunately and the original posters statements only lend credence to it. We have become the force that binds the global community together. We are the ones expected to intervene in conflicts. To commit military forces, and to bring political pressure to bare on all fronts. Hardly an easy feet. Unfortunately if the United States takes a hands off approach we have seen the results. They are called World War, Genocide, Ethnic cleansing, and Totalitarian regimes.

So the United States sits in a position where it gets railed against for not doing what certain groups want, and then when the United States does nothing those same groups rail against the United States for not doing their part. Let me give you an example. After the tsunami a few years back nations in the region actually complained that the United States did not send enough aid, and further more tried to sue the United States among others for not providing tsunami warnings. Even though these nations did not contribute to the tsunami early warning system one cent.

Think about it the United States was guilty of not giving the amount of charity many of these nations wanted. Even worse the United States spent money to protect its citizens from tsunamis which many of these countries couldn't be bothered to share any of the burden for, but they wanted the protection.

Generally I think American citizens are just getting tired of this nonsense, and like a face slapped one time too often. Frankly we are just getting sick of all the crying and belly aching. Your problem might seem big to you, but our foreign policy has to spin a hundred other plates besides your own. Do you really need the United States to do everything for you?

I wonder if they realize that perhaps the United States is the only reason Israel isn't carpet bombing Palestinian villages. Seriously if this kind of thing went on in any other country the citizens wouldn't stand for it they would demand their government flatten the offenders. You do realize Israel has the bomb, and they have had it for some time. They are not going anywhere ever. So it is simple self interest to come to some compromise.

My first dog was born in 1984.

TheBigFatJ said: The Israel-Palestine dispute is a lot more two-sided and confusing than you're making it sound. Palestine's desires aren't realistic, and their methods are barbaric. And even if the US wasn't pro-Israel, it wouldn't matter. Israel can stand on its own. History proved this.

This whole Israel-Palestine issue was caused by America; they are the one's who stole land from the Palestine to give to the Israelis after the 2nd world war. The invaders are the Israelis not the Palestinians, so it's only natural for the Palestinians to fight off the invaders as would any country being invaded.

Having said this, it's clear that with out America's help the Israeli people wouldn't even have a country, as clearly they lost their lands when conquered over 5 centuries ago. 

Also America should not have allowed Israel to get nuclear weapons cause that has just made the overall situation worse, now you have  countries like Iran wanting to get Nukes and really at this stage why shouldn’t they?

iberz said: not one candidate for US presedential election nominations has the balls to stand up for what's right, tell AIPAC to f**k off and stop being biased against the most opressed people in the world.

 You're wrong, there is one: Ron Paul. He wouldn't help the Palestinians but he would stop supporting Israel. He has no chance of being elected however. Obama is probably the least bad electable candidate from the Palestinian POV, because he seems to have some actual morality, but he too won't push the Israelis to give up their territorial conquests and their illegal colonies. Realistically that won't happen in the foreseeable future, unless the Palestinians accept one more humiliation and let Israel keep the biggest colonies.

 

Israel gave us the current line of intel processors. Thanks, Israel! Israel is also a stable and lively democracy. Racism is present, but less so then in countries like Japan or Korea, for example.

And hasn't Israel returned the Gaza strip to Palestinian authority? Look what they've done with that. It's a civil war. Hasn't the PA received billions upon billions of foreign aid over the decades, mostly from the EU? Tell me where the money went.

The Arab countries and and Iran are about as much to blame for not solving the conflict as Israel and the Palestinians and the US. Singling out Israel always smells like "they don't belong here, let's drive them into the sea".

And saying somebody is just afraid to say something when he says he doesn't share your opinion is a conspiracy theory.

starcraft said: superchunk said: two-sided = true. unrealistic = false. Israel was created illegally and under racists conditions. It should not exist. However, it is recognized by the world and is obviously not going anywhere. Therefore at this point and time Palestinians should recognize Israel and try to move on for their own statehood. PA wants land back to the 1967 borders, basically all the land that was taken by means of war. According the the Geneva conventions and world law that is what should happen. PA wants to be able to return to their homes that were taken in all wars since Israel's creation. Again, world law and Geneva conventions agree. Personally, if the land was fully given back and Israel gave $$ in exchange for the homes I would think that they would for-go the Right of Return. What exactly is the mass of the PA asking for that is unrealistic? That the laws of this world be actually upheld? Granted there are those, Hamas, that want more and need to be realistic with themselves based on what has happened since 1948, but, for the last few years the Arabs as a coalition, including the PA, has agreed that if Israel moved itself completely back the the 'green line' of 1967 they all would have full normal ties with Israel. However, Israel refuses to follow international law and will continue to do so as long as it is backed by the US.  Oh, and I forgot your barbaric statement. It was touched upon by another poster, but I will just say that you really should read about the pre-Israeli Jewish terrorist organizations, Irgun and Stern Gang, that will give you all info you need to know where and how the current Palestinian groups learned to fight. For starters they completely wiped out a palestinian village of all people and animals just prior to Israel's creation. They bombed hotels and homes of British military personel in the Palestinian Province when it was under British control. Their tactics of the original terror are the reasons the British left and Israel officially formed. This is where Hamas and others learned that terror can work. You lost me with this horrible statement. The main man I've heard spouting that crap is Iran's leader, shortly before calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map." Most people in Israel were born there, and see the land as theirs. It's very similar to land claims by American indians. Their ancestors were betrayed and abused by yours, but does that mean YOU should be held responsible? Of course not. Israel should be more pro-active in trying to establish a Palestinian state, but any Palestinian that believes israel should not exist DOES have unrealistic (and inhuman) desires. Furthermore, just as in many cases Israel takes risks with Palestinian civilians that it wouldn't take with it's own (and this is wrong), it is equally wrong for Palestinians to support suicide bombings against Israeli citizens. At some point if Palestinians want to be taken seriously, they need to do what Egypt has done and support Israels right to exist. If they do this, Israel will feel more comfortable, and will have no excuse not to push for a Palestinian state.

I never said Israel should be wiped off the map. In fact if you read the rest of the very paragraph you stopped at it states that I think that the idea of Israel not existing NOW should be forgotten as it is not legal or morally right. 

 However, you have a bit of misconception on the Jewish population in Israel. You mention above and in another post to iberz that the Jews were predominantly born there and the Palestinians were not. Either I am misunderstanding you or you have no concept of Israel's creation.

As late as WWII the Jewish population in the Palestinian provence was less than 10%. Then from the end of the war until 1947 the British allowed and then tried to stop a massive illegal immigration of European Jews into Palestine. The Jewish population at that point exlpoded from ~10% to ~40%. Even to this day if you count the entirety of Israel and WB and Gaza, Jews are still ~40% or less of the population.

If you were only referring to current circumstances, then you may be right and that is why it is now morally wrong to "wipe Israel off the map" as well as just illegal.