superchunk said:
starcraft said:
superchunk said:
two-sided = true. unrealistic = false. Israel was created illegally and under racists conditions. It should not exist. However, it is recognized by the world and is obviously not going anywhere. Therefore at this point and time Palestinians should recognize Israel and try to move on for their own statehood. PA wants land back to the 1967 borders, basically all the land that was taken by means of war. According the the Geneva conventions and world law that is what should happen. PA wants to be able to return to their homes that were taken in all wars since Israel's creation. Again, world law and Geneva conventions agree. Personally, if the land was fully given back and Israel gave $$ in exchange for the homes I would think that they would for-go the Right of Return. What exactly is the mass of the PA asking for that is unrealistic? That the laws of this world be actually upheld? Granted there are those, Hamas, that want more and need to be realistic with themselves based on what has happened since 1948, but, for the last few years the Arabs as a coalition, including the PA, has agreed that if Israel moved itself completely back the the 'green line' of 1967 they all would have full normal ties with Israel. However, Israel refuses to follow international law and will continue to do so as long as it is backed by the US. Oh, and I forgot your barbaric statement. It was touched upon by another poster, but I will just say that you really should read about the pre-Israeli Jewish terrorist organizations, Irgun and Stern Gang, that will give you all info you need to know where and how the current Palestinian groups learned to fight. For starters they completely wiped out a palestinian village of all people and animals just prior to Israel's creation. They bombed hotels and homes of British military personel in the Palestinian Province when it was under British control. Their tactics of the original terror are the reasons the British left and Israel officially formed. This is where Hamas and others learned that terror can work. |
You lost me with this horrible statement. The main man I've heard spouting that crap is Iran's leader, shortly before calling for Israel to be "wiped off the map." Most people in Israel were born there, and see the land as theirs. It's very similar to land claims by American indians. Their ancestors were betrayed and abused by yours, but does that mean YOU should be held responsible? Of course not. Israel should be more pro-active in trying to establish a Palestinian state, but any Palestinian that believes israel should not exist DOES have unrealistic (and inhuman) desires. Furthermore, just as in many cases Israel takes risks with Palestinian civilians that it wouldn't take with it's own (and this is wrong), it is equally wrong for Palestinians to support suicide bombings against Israeli citizens. At some point if Palestinians want to be taken seriously, they need to do what Egypt has done and support Israels right to exist. If they do this, Israel will feel more comfortable, and will have no excuse not to push for a Palestinian state. |
I never said Israel should be wiped off the map. In fact if you read the rest of the very paragraph you stopped at it states that I think that the idea of Israel not existing NOW should be forgotten as it is not legal or morally right. However, you have a bit of misconception on the Jewish population in Israel. You mention above and in another post to iberz that the Jews were predominantly born there and the Palestinians were not. Either I am misunderstanding you or you have no concept of Israel's creation. As late as WWII the Jewish population in the Palestinian provence was less than 10%. Then from the end of the war until 1947 the British allowed and then tried to stop a massive illegal immigration of European Jews into Palestine. The Jewish population at that point exlpoded from ~10% to ~40%. Even to this day if you count the entirety of Israel and WB and Gaza, Jews are still ~40% or less of the population. If you were only referring to current circumstances, then you may be right and that is why it is now morally wrong to "wipe Israel off the map" as well as just illegal. |
You missed part of his point. The point many people keep bringing up that you ignore. That jewish people used to live there before the UK put them there... and they were pushed out, supressed, in many cases just straight killed,many times and dispersed before reforming.
The ancient Jewish claim to the land is stronger then the Palestianian claim it's just the palestinians have beeen the ones who most recently have been "driven out of there because they weren't strong enough."
If we were to switch land based on that, it would go back to Palestine, then the Ottomans, then, I want to say Egypt and Syria (combined), The Crusaders of europe(EU?), than Israel, then egypt and syria again, then Italy(romans), then Israel, then Italy, Then Israel, Then Iran (persia,) Then Babylon? (Iraq?), Then Israel, Then they Asyrians who i don't even think have modern ancesstors, then Israel again.
So if you played that scenario to it's end game... it all goes back to Israel anyway, due to a number of countries like the ottoman's invading for no legal reasons.
After all that it would end with it once again going back to Israel, and the crazy thing is.. they will be there to see it all as some jewish people have stayed in that area for the whole crazy thing.
