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Forums - General Discussion - One thing Obama won't change

MrMafoo said:
superchunk said:
@lanceuppercut -- the rest of the region hate us because we support Israel so blindly. If we actually forced them to follow international law, maybe just maybe the majority of that region wouldn't hate us.

Where is that our job? Shouldn't the UN do something?


Why is it our (USA) job? We have made it our job since the cold war when we ignorantly felt we needed Israeli support.

 Reason's why your statement does not make sense.

A. US has veto power in UN. Everytime the UN tries to put out a ruling against Israel, US veto's.
B. US is Israel's base.  We give Israel tons of $$ and weapons. We are the only nation that has any chance for actual change in Israeli politics.



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Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:
MrMafoo said:
superchunk said:
@lanceuppercut -- the rest of the region hate us because we support Israel so blindly. If we actually forced them to follow international law, maybe just maybe the majority of that region wouldn't hate us.

Where is that our job? Shouldn't the UN do something?


The UN can't do anything when one of the Big Five doesn't want it to. And don't pretend that isn't the way you like it. The US is so miserly with its own sovereignty that it won't even sign a ban on landmines (completely indescriminant weapons) and generally disregards treaties that it has signed whenever it's no longer convenient to observe them.

One of the Big 5? You know the Europeon Union is Pro Israel as well right? I wouldn't start a US bitch fest here. If we stopped supporting them another country would likely pick up the slack. Or a combination of them. It's not like the other 4 with veto power don't support some pretty ridiculious bills as well.

 


 No other nation in the world supports Israel like the US. Sure, they nearly all support Israel as a legitimate state, however, they all also state that Palestine should exist. EU nations usually always vote opposite the US in regards to Israel. If it wasn't for US blind support Israel would have a lot of UN heat.



Kasz216 said:
Say. I've yet to read this topic... but is anyone else wondering how much this site is going to look like a freakin CNN message board by the time the US elections really get into swing?

 

agreed anyways I'm going to keep my comments about Palestine and Israel to myself and like it or not no future President will stop supporting Israel.


superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:
MrMafoo said:
superchunk said:
@lanceuppercut -- the rest of the region hate us because we support Israel so blindly. If we actually forced them to follow international law, maybe just maybe the majority of that region wouldn't hate us.

Where is that our job? Shouldn't the UN do something?


The UN can't do anything when one of the Big Five doesn't want it to. And don't pretend that isn't the way you like it. The US is so miserly with its own sovereignty that it won't even sign a ban on landmines (completely indescriminant weapons) and generally disregards treaties that it has signed whenever it's no longer convenient to observe them.

One of the Big 5? You know the Europeon Union is Pro Israel as well right? I wouldn't start a US bitch fest here. If we stopped supporting them another country would likely pick up the slack. Or a combination of them. It's not like the other 4 with veto power don't support some pretty ridiculious bills as well.

 


No other nation in the world supports Israel like the US. Sure, they nearly all support Israel as a legitimate state, however, they all also state that Palestine should exist. EU nations usually always vote opposite the US in regards to Israel. If it wasn't for US blind support Israel would have a lot of UN heat.


Disagree.  I've never once heard a president say they don't support a Palestine state existing.  In fact every president i've heard has supported a two state solution.  I mean the US presidents to spend a lot of time over there trying to hammer out peace.   Clinton was positive it would go down as his greatest achievement if he could work out a two state solution.

The US would like a 2 state solution, but would also like the violence to stop, which is going to have to stop from palestine first, as Israel as a country is rather jumpy.  That happens when you get founded in an area where everyone dislikes you as a place to go because everyone in the places you like hate you, and later on try and kill you, and other countries in the area have no problem to take potshots at israel.   

That's why we give them so much money.  The other nations in the world that actually want to destroy israel. 

If the US didn't pick up the check someone else would, as Israel needs funding from other threats in the region.



Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:
MrMafoo said:
superchunk said:
@lanceuppercut -- the rest of the region hate us because we support Israel so blindly. If we actually forced them to follow international law, maybe just maybe the majority of that region wouldn't hate us.

Where is that our job? Shouldn't the UN do something?


The UN can't do anything when one of the Big Five doesn't want it to. And don't pretend that isn't the way you like it. The US is so miserly with its own sovereignty that it won't even sign a ban on landmines (completely indescriminant weapons) and generally disregards treaties that it has signed whenever it's no longer convenient to observe them.

One of the Big 5? You know the Europeon Union is Pro Israel as well right?  I wouldn't start a US bitch fest here.  If we stopped supporting them another country would likely pick up the slack.  Or a combination of them.  It's not like the other 4 with veto power don't support some pretty ridiculious bills as well.

I don't disagree with you at all, I mostly just get tired of people who slag the UN for not being effective when it can only be as effective as its member states want it to be. 



"The worst part about these reviews is they are [subjective]--and their scores often depend on how drunk you got the media at a Street Fighter event."  — Mona Hamilton, Capcom Senior VP of Marketing
*Image indefinitely borrowed from BrainBoxLtd without his consent.

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Kasz216 said:
superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:
famousringo said:
MrMafoo said:
superchunk said:
@lanceuppercut -- the rest of the region hate us because we support Israel so blindly. If we actually forced them to follow international law, maybe just maybe the majority of that region wouldn't hate us.

Where is that our job? Shouldn't the UN do something?


The UN can't do anything when one of the Big Five doesn't want it to. And don't pretend that isn't the way you like it. The US is so miserly with its own sovereignty that it won't even sign a ban on landmines (completely indescriminant weapons) and generally disregards treaties that it has signed whenever it's no longer convenient to observe them.

One of the Big 5? You know the Europeon Union is Pro Israel as well right? I wouldn't start a US bitch fest here. If we stopped supporting them another country would likely pick up the slack. Or a combination of them. It's not like the other 4 with veto power don't support some pretty ridiculious bills as well.

 


No other nation in the world supports Israel like the US. Sure, they nearly all support Israel as a legitimate state, however, they all also state that Palestine should exist. EU nations usually always vote opposite the US in regards to Israel. If it wasn't for US blind support Israel would have a lot of UN heat.


Disagree. I've never once heard a president say they don't support a Palestine state existing. In fact every president i've heard has supported a two state solution. I mean the US presidents to spend a lot of time over there trying to hammer out peace. Clinton was positive it would go down as his greatest achievement if he could work out a two state solution.

The US would like a 2 state solution, but would also like the violence to stop, which is going to have to stop from palestine first, as Israel as a country is rather jumpy. That happens when you get founded in an area where everyone dislikes you as a place to go because everyone in the places you like hate you, and later on try and kill you, and other countries in the area have no problem to take potshots at israel.

That's why we give them so much money. The other nations in the world that actually want to destroy israel.

If the US didn't pick up the check someone else would, as Israel needs funding from other threats in the region.


 ok, you are right that US Presidents have officially stated they want a 2 state solution and of course they all want peace and the stoppage to all violence and yes Clinton has done possibly the best attempt ever at creating such peace.

However, why is the Palestinian violence the only one worth mentioning? Oh I know, like any generally typical US citizen you don't hear or know about anything else. Our wonderful unbiased media at work here.

You see I have family there, living in the streets. I read newspapers from there as well as all over the world regarding the daily events. Sure, I read about the apprehesible attacks from blindly shot missles and bombers in cafes, but, I also read about daily attackes from Israeli settlers and farmers being gunned down because their groves are too close to the illegal wall being built. I know personal stories of my, then 9 and 10 year old brothers walking to school and being so scared by IDF soldiers that they pee'd thier pants. Why? because he was just dick and his friends were laughing. I also know stories of them hiding on the floor of their house with all the lights off at least once a week as the local settlers came through trying to start fights and shooting guns.

Basically, you don't see the daily terror that the average Palestinian sees. Things that have been happening way longer than the first Intifada. People being forced to sell their homes in Jerusalem that their family has lived in since before any of our fathers were even alive. 100's of years.

I'm sorry the only solution to the violence is for Israel to stop. It must move out of Palestinian homes and go back to the 1967 borders. It must make ammends in some fashion to the millions of Palestinians who are obviously never going to be allowed back to thier homes in Israel. The Palestinians only crime was not being powerful enough when the UK and the UN gave away their homes.

And you are wrong. If there were no cold war the US probably would never have backed Israel the way it does now. Now, our Israeli lobby, AIPAC, is too powerfull and the US will more than likely never do what is really necessary to create peace. Only lip service.



Who says I haven't seen it?  Nice assumption.

You've got the order wrong. They can't move back until the violence stops. Not the other way around.


Who is going to move back and concentrate their population while they're being attacked?  Not only does the violence hve to stop, but other nations have to stop threatining israel.

Kasz216 said:

Who says I haven't seen it? Nice assumption.

You've got the order wrong. They can't move back until the violence stops. Not the other way around.


Who is going to move back and concentrate their population while they're being attacked? Not only does the violence hve to stop, but other nations have to stop threatining israel.

 Concentrate their population? WTF are you talking about. The part of Israeli population that is not already on "their" side of the '67 border is living in military outposts and illegal settlements. The later of which is also military outposts and has been condemned by everyone including the last few US Presidents. They total less than 500k people out of over 6m people. MOVE THEM!!

All they need to do is follow international law. Is that so hard to understand. Laws says these people are living on land that they took illegally, they need to be relocated back to your lands. So do it.

As for the other nations threating Israel. When Clinton was still president all of the Arab nations came together and drafted a full peace plan. In it they asked for '67 borders and right of return in exchange for full normal relationship with EVERY ARAB NATION. Israel declined. They didn't even offer anything else to continue the dialogue. In fact the only groups to denounce it were all the extreamest, Israel, Hamas, and I think Libya. 

No matter what happens there will always be groups that want Israel removed, see Hamas. But, that is not who they are even talking to. If they gave the PA the '67 borders and a real compensation and assitance to rebuild Palestine in exchange for the right of return the mass of the people would not support the extreamist. 

When was the last act of violence directed towards Israel that came from someone besides Hamas? Ever since  the PA and Hamas formally split and Israel vacated Gaza, the only violence has been between Hamas and Israel. And that is usually a tit for tat situation. Israel fires open weapons civilian areas to hit a Hamas person. Usually killing few innocents. Hamas blindly shoots rockets into Israel. Usually doint property damage if that.

Its been over a year since anything else, I could be wrong but I definitely cannot think of anything else. Guess what PA and Hamas are not friends. Give PA a viable state and funding, they will take care of Hamas to ensure they are kept in power. Not to mention if they have funding they could start to gain their populaces favor again as they would begin to do all of the social necessities like schools and hospitals that Hamas has been doing in Gaza and to a lesser extant in WB for years due to underground funding from supporters. 



I love golden retriever puppies! they're so cute!



superchunk said:
Kasz216 said:

Who says I haven't seen it? Nice assumption.

You've got the order wrong. They can't move back until the violence stops. Not the other way around.


Who is going to move back and concentrate their population while they're being attacked? Not only does the violence hve to stop, but other nations have to stop threatining israel.

Concentrate their population? WTF are you talking about. The part of Israeli population that is not already on "their" side of the '67 border is living in military outposts and illegal settlements. The later of which is also military outposts and has been condemned by everyone including the last few US Presidents. They total less than 500k people out of over 6m people. MOVE THEM!!

All they need to do is follow international law. Is that so hard to understand. Laws says these people are living on land that they took illegally, they need to be relocated back to your lands. So do it.

As for the other nations threating Israel. When Clinton was still president all of the Arab nations came together and drafted a full peace plan. In it they asked for '67 borders and right of return in exchange for full normal relationship with EVERY ARAB NATION. Israel declined. They didn't even offer anything else to continue the dialogue. In fact the only groups to denounce it were all the extreamest, Israel, Hamas, and I think Libya.

No matter what happens there will always be groups that want Israel removed, see Hamas. But, that is not who they are even talking to. If they gave the PA the '67 borders and a real compensation and assitance to rebuild Palestine in exchange for the right of return the mass of the people would not support the extreamist.

When was the last act of violence directed towards Israel that came from someone besides Hamas? Ever since the PA and Hamas formally split and Israel vacated Gaza, the only violence has been between Hamas and Israel. And that is usually a tit for tat situation. Israel fires open weapons civilian areas to hit a Hamas person. Usually killing few innocents. Hamas blindly shoots rockets into Israel. Usually doint property damage if that.

Its been over a year since anything else, I could be wrong but I definitely cannot think of anything else. Guess what PA and Hamas are not friends. Give PA a viable state and funding, they will take care of Hamas to ensure they are kept in power. Not to mention if they have funding they could start to gain their populaces favor again as they would begin to do all of the social necessities like schools and hospitals that Hamas has been doing in Gaza and to a lesser extant in WB for years due to underground funding from supporters.


Over a year? It's gonna take more than a year. You close your borders and it's easier for people to infiltrate and get to your main population base.

There is going to have to be a downturn in violence. That's whow it works.

You want a peace solution? Palestein should give up the leaders of Hamas for War Crimes and Crime against humanity trials then. Like the Global Human Rights watch says. Get rid of Hamas first, then a peace can be made.

Otherwise your asking Israel to give up land, to people who are electing people who want to kill them.