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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

UltimateUnknown said:

Underlined: Interference referred to our ability to choose, not just god leaving everything to unfold by itself. God still regulates this universe with the laws of physics and what have you. If you pray for guidance/aid sincerely then you get it, if you don't then you don't for the most part. There are probably many more factors regulating who god chooses to assist because we can't really know the mindset of every person but God does.

Bolded: Again if someone was never exposed to the truth, then their judgement will be made accordingly.

I think your question is more along the lines of why did god choose to give us free will when he could have just not given us it and we would have obliged with what god wanted rather than doing evil. I can't really answer that question unfortunately because I don't understand the mindset of an all powerful being. No one does. What I do understand is that god has given us guidance towards the right path and has promised to judge each of us accordingly with respect to even the minutest detail of our actions and circumstances that we were under. With that in mind we should all try to do our best in upholding what is good and rejecting that which is bad. If we do trip up somewhere, then believe that God is also the most forgiving and merciful and not lose hope.

Underlined: Well, that I do. My philosophy has always been that as long as you enjoy something and it doesn't directly or indirectly harm someone, you're good to go.

As for the rest: I guess at least we can agree that God works in mysterious ways,





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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


Thanks for the detailed responce, and I'd like to elaburate on your river example:

While God never actually did anything to affect this boat driver's decision, surely, as an almighty deity, he should have known what direction the driver would choose even before it made the decision?

Even if his will is free, God is still able to look one/infinite steps ahead. God knows why this person chose the specific direction that it chose.

 

The same thing can be said about any person and/or criminal: God can fully understand the reasoning from their perspective, and sympathize with their decisions, no matter how horrible or evil it may look from a non-omnipotent point of view, There is always a reason to why people choose to make decisions that are looked upon as evil actions, and God is aware of every possible reason there may be.

Again, you're still constraining yourself to a linear flow of time (and it's totally understandable, as it's the only thing we know).  To God, there is no "one / infinite steps ahead", there is only now.  For Him, the past, present, and future are all His now, as best we can understand it.  (This is where it sucks to be a temporal being, chained to the flow of time.)

Does he understand our motivations, though?  Absolutely.  Which is why if someone commits a heinous crime from our point of view, they may or may not be as culpable in His eyes as someone that knew full well what they were doing was wrong, and chose to do it anyway.  He judges us not just on our actions, but our very hearts and souls.  And while evil actions are very much held into account, how much more so are our instincts, even if we do not act upon it?  Jesus Himself said that all have fallen short of the glory of God, and gave examples of how even evil thoughts were as bad as actually committing the deed.  So yes, God knows our motivations.  He also knows we're flawed.  It's why He gave us a way out, when He really had no good reason to do so.  We certainly don't deserve it.

Another thought:  If a being is omniscient, then they also have the power to reign in that omniscience, if they will it to be so.  Christ did so, and there's no reason for me to believe God Himself is incapable of the feat.  Counter-intuitive, sure, but if we're talking about a being that can create the entire universe in six days, it's not too much of a stretch to believe He can not have to exercise all of His ability, either, and give us that free will.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

God is almighty, and He has every single ability that one may think of. This obviously includes the ablity to see the future, to flawlessly predict everything that will happen in this universe. God is aware of everything.

This makes you wonder though: If God really is almighty, then doesn't He already know who will end up in heaven and who will end up in hell? Would He not be able to predict every single good deed and sin that you will commit throughout your life, even before you were born? I mean, how could He not know?

As I see it, God is currently watching us go through happiness and misery just for the hell of it. He knows exactly how evil will affect all humans involved and He has the ability to stop it. He already knows how every single human will use their free (yet, by God, predictable) will, so it's not up to us to do anything about our situation.

Our fate is in God's hands. Period.

Know about, and architecting a situation are two separate things.  Here is something for you:  Is it not possible, if God can do anything, to design the universe so everything ends up the way that God would want, while people have sufficient autonomy to show true character and their nature, and have the ability to change who they are?  Is it entirely possible, that even in the suffering, it is possible that that could work for a greater good?  In other word, local autonomy with global deterministic outcome.

If you want to ponder the part of human suffering further, read the Book of Job, if you haven't already.

From a logical standpoint, what you are getting into is paradoxes regarding prediction.  If you can totally see the future with 100% certainty, does that means that you can't change it.  A paradox side to this is people want to see the future with absolute certainty so they can avoid bad things happening (or in some cases make wagers to benefit from the outcome).  At that point, then the predicting ends up being useless.   Beyond this, if accepted, then the idea is that people want to put them in the center of the universe, so what they can do will generate outcomes they desire, with absolute certainty, so they can be able to run things as they like.



SargeSmash said:

Again, you're still constraining yourself to a linear flow of time (and it's totally understandable, as it's the only thing we know).  To God, there is no "one / infinite steps ahead", there is only now.  For Him, the past, present, and future are all His now, as best we can understand it.  (This is where it sucks to be a temporal being, chained to the flow of time.)

Does he understand our motivations, though?  Absolutely.  Which is why if someone commits a heinous crime from our point of view, they may or may not be as culpable in His eyes as someone that knew full well what they were doing was wrong, and chose to do it anyway.  He judges us not just on our actions, but our very hearts and souls.  And while evil actions are very much held into account, how much more so are our instincts, even if we do not act upon it?  Jesus Himself said that all have fallen short of the glory of God, and gave examples of how even evil thoughts were as bad as actually committing the deed.  So yes, God knows our motivations.  He also knows we're flawed.  It's why he gave us a way out, when He really had no good reason to do so.  We certainly don't deserve it.

Another thought:  If a being is omniscient, then they also have the power to reign in that omniscience, if they will it to be so.  Christ did so, and there's no reason for me to believe God Himself is incapable of the feat.  Counter-intuitive, sure, but if we're talking about a being that can create the entire universe in six days, it's not too much of a stretch to believe He can not have to exercise all of His ability, either, and give us that free will.

Bolded: You are right; We are chained to the flow of time. But shouldn't it be possibe for an almighy outsider to analyze the future through the cause-effect model? Present is shaped by the past and the future is shaped by the present. God must have full control/understanding of time, and must be able to see the future in order to actually be almighty.

That is where the rest of the free will argument fall as well. If everything isn't linear, then God can't possibly see the future and is, de facto: Flawed.

As for the last paragraph, or more specifically: The underlined: That dilemma is just like the old fashioned "Can God create a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it?"-dilemma. It is a paradox without a (logical) answer.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
NNN2004 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII i don't know why you hate religions that much ?!
if you don't like religions don't bother with it .. ha simple ?

If religious people don't like gay marriage, then why do they bother with it?

All I'm doing is put some of my thoughts about why I stopped being religious on the internet (and so far, no one has been able to disprove anything that I've said in this thread). If that bugs you then you may leave, if you want to participate though then that's great. The more opinions being shared, the better

to be honest i hate gays but they dont bother me at all so i dont care for them and i almost stopped being religious before until i saw unbelivable things in front of me that make me strongly believe that god exist or something powerfull that we dont know about !



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richardhutnik said:

Know about, and architecting a situation are two separate things.  Here is something for you:  Is it not possible, if God can do anything, to design the universe so everything ends up the way that God would want, while people have sufficient autonomy to show true character and their nature, and have the ability to change who they are?  Is it entirely possible, that even in the suffering, it is possible that that could work for a greater good?  In other word, local autonomy with global deterministic outcome.

If you want to ponder the part of human suffering further, read the Book of Job, if you haven't already.

From a logical standpoint, what you are getting into is paradoxes regarding prediction.  If you can totally see the future with 100% certainty, does that means that you can't change it.  A paradox side to this is people want to see the future with absolute certainty so they can avoid bad things happening (or in some cases make wagers to benefit from the outcome).  At that point, then the predicting ends up being useless.   Beyond this, if accepted, then the idea is that people want to put them in the center of the universe, so what they can do will generate outcomes they desire, with absolute certainty, so they can be able to run things as they like.


Bolded: No, it is not. Or at least not by logic as we perceive it. God cannot be able to create a scenario in which he cannot forsee each and every event that will occur within it. That would be like I said before: God creating a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it.

Underlined: That is an example that I've used myself, but it does not hold in this discussion. For witnessing the future to be useless you would have to be affected by time yourself during the process. God, on the other hand, is outside of the entire time dimension and has all the tools that he needs (his 'almightyness') to witness and reshape the future.



Ah, but really, it's all paradoxical to our limited understanding.  There's only so far we can take our arguments before our human reasoning breaks down.  So I wouldn't even claim to understand it all.  I believe I've come to a logically consistent view of God, but even that is as imperfect a view as can exist.  I (and any other person who looks) cannot begin to comprehend the magnitude, power, abilities, and motivations of that sort of being.  We're just not equipped to do it.

Again, I think He already sees it all.  Time, in my reckoning, is nothing more than an artificial construct for us.  If God were constrained to linearity, then he wouldn't be omniscient, and then flawed.  It's all a matter of perspective.

As for the rock...  it's unliftable until He decides that He can lift it.  ;)  At some point, everything we believe becomes a paradox, religious or not.

EDIT:  I'll also add that God is still shaping the future.  Or present, for Him.  There are certain outcomes that are set in stone.  We know this to be true.  However, there is freedom for us along the way to make decisions that affect our own path through life.  But in the end, there is only one choice that is important to God.  Do we follow Him, or do we not?  That's what it comes down to.  I'd argue that everything we go through is a means to that end.  It is to create a being that has the choice to not glorify Him, but does so (imperfectly, but does) anyway.  In the end, God is in control.  God is even in control when he allows us to make our own choices, for it is His control that allows us to exist and make those choices.  Is it paradoxical?  Yes.  But the very definition of a paradox is a "seeming contradiction".  It doesn't mean that it is a contradiction.



SargeSmash said:

Ah, but really, it's all paradoxical to our limited understanding.  There's only so far we can take our arguments before our human reasoning breaks down.  So I wouldn't even claim to understand it all.  I believe I've come to a logically consistent view of God, but even that is as imperfect a view as can exist.  I (and any other person who looks) cannot begin to comprehend the magnitude, power, abilities, and motivations of that sort of being.  We're just not equipped to do it.

Again, I think He already sees it all.  Time, in my reckoning, is nothing more than an artificial construct for us.  If God were constrained to linearity, then he wouldn't be omniscient, and then flawed.  It's all a matter of perspective.

As for the rock...  it's unliftable until He decides that He can lift it.  ;)  At some point, everything we believe becomes a paradox, religious or not.


Indeed :)



I hate it when people mix up the Devil's work as God's will



 

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SnakeDrake said:
I hate it when people mix up the Devil's work as God's will

Why???

If God wanted to He could easily kill the Devil.