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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

SargeSmash on 09 May 2012

He doesn't intentionally put people through suffering. He allows it to happen, however, when it serves His Will. How many of us would actually grow closer and trust in God if there was never suffering, no punishment at all for transgressions against Him, and everything was perfect? We chose to break the system, and God, in all His power, decided to allow us that choice. Anything that we get from this point on, given our fallen nature, given our choice, even our continued existence, is nothing but pure mercy from an Creator that could have given up on us long ago (at least in our temporal view).

For us to have freedom, He has to let evil happen. He has to let suffering happen. Otherwise, there is no choice, and there is no freedom. That freedom is both the most amazing gift and direst curse upon the human race. And make no mistake, he allows it to happen not only to provide a choice, but allows suffering because we chose it and continue to choose it. Just as when, if we do not choose Him, he will let us go to Hell. He did not create it for us, but if we choose it, we will go there.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 May 2012
Max King of the Wild said:

Underlined: If he intervened then he would take away one of the most precious gifts he gave humans. Free will. And maybe that attribute is so important to him that we need to live in a world with laws such as this to have it. Also, that attribute is very important to humans.

If you wanted to hit me in the head with a bat and when you were about to do evil god turned the bat into flowers. You would not have had the ability to carry out your intentions thus you have no free will.


There is Biblical proof that God has intervened with us though. By flooding the Earth he intervened with millions of free wills.



Max King of the Wild on 09 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Max King of the Wild said:

Underlined: If he intervened then he would take away one of the most precious gifts he gave humans. Free will. And maybe that attribute is so important to him that we need to live in a world with laws such as this to have it. Also, that attribute is very important to humans.

If you wanted to hit me in the head with a bat and when you were about to do evil god turned the bat into flowers. You would not have had the ability to carry out your intentions thus you have no free will.


There is Biblical proof that God has intervened with us though. By flooding the Earth he intervened with millions of free wills.


absolutely not



IIIIITHE1IIIII on 09 May 2012
Max King of the Wild said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


There is Biblical proof that God has intervened with us though. By flooding the Earth he intervened with millions of free wills.


absolutely not


Why not? Were it not for the flood, thousands of crimes would have been performed by the peope who God killed.

 

Side-note: Thanks guys for all interesting discussions. I gotta take a break now :)



Jumpin on 09 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jumpin said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

That is where the rest of the free will argument fall as well. If everything isn't linear, then God can't possibly see the future and is, de facto: Flawed.

You are making an assumption here. In a universe of free will, the ability to accurately predict everything for all time would be logically absurd for obvious reasons. I don't think the lack of the ability to perform the logically absurd can really be called a flaw.

I think so though. Would God still be considered almighty if he wasn't infinitely intelligent (which is logically absurd)?

No level of intelligence would grant any mind the ability to perorm that which is not conceivably possible (such as predict that which is unpredictable).



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SargeSmash on 09 May 2012

Yes, He intervened. After He gave people a substantial period of our time to repent. And just as He will intervene with us in the future. He may be a merciful God, but He is also a just God, and justice must be done at some point.

Besides, just because we have free will doesn't mean that we have free will forever, to do as we please. We have this limited time frame on Earth to make our decision. We choose to either side with Him or against Him. In the end, He will intervene through our death, whether suddenly in an accident or by natural causes in old age. Yet we have been interfered with, by that logic, because He allowed us to die.

If you're going to hold hard and fast to the notion that God can never, ever intervene, or that our free will has been forever nullified, then there is no choice but to believe in Deism, where the Creator is no longer actively involved with His creation. However, I don't think the Bible indicates that at all. Nor do I believe that, if God circumvents our free will at certain points, that we suddenly have no free will at all. We still have decisions that we must make, even if the eventual outcome is set in stone. And we are in situations every day that we have no power over. Does this, too, mean that we have no free will whatsoever? I think not.

In the end, once again, those points at which we do have deterministic capability are only important for one singular purpose: to choose what side we will be on. It is the only important decision in life, and we choose it every day by how we live, and who we choose to serve.



NobleTeam360 on 09 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
DélioPT said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

If God knows everything at once then he already has a list of every single sin and good deed that you ever will commit. That list is affected by Him and Him only, assuming that he is almighty.


Good deeds and sins are man made. God presents you a path as does the devil. You choose. In neither case does anyone take that away from you.
That`s why you are responsible for your actions.

But God already knows about everything that you will choose before you are born. So what is the purpose of hell? Did God just create a few humans that are destined to commit sins and go there once they die? It makes no sense.

We are God's slaves.


LOL you keep saying the same thing over and over.



appolose on 09 May 2012

I'll try to demonstrate the tenability of an omniscient, omnipotent, and all-loving God coexisting with free will and evil.

First, I'll address omniscience and free will. Typically, the objection to their simultaneous existence runs like this:

1. I will choose to stand up in a moment
2. God knows this.
3. God is never wrong.
4. Therefore, I have no choice but to stand up in a moment

As airtight and logically flowing as these seems...

1. I will choose to stand up in a moment
2. Therefore, I have no choice but to stand up in a moment

The conclusion ("Therefore,") still follows without the statements about God. That is to say, if you are going to choose to stand up in a moment, then you have no choice but to stand up in a moment. The first statement already says what you will do; the conclusion has to repeat it in order to avoid contradiction.

With free will, you can still only pick one thing to do. As you are certainly going to pick one thing to do, your future will consist of that choice: "I AM going to stand up in a moment." You cannot choose not to do what you are going to choose to do; that is illogical. That is to say, whatever it is I will be doing will be that which I choose to do. It is not the future that determines your actions, but the reverse. In an omniscient God's case, it's the same thing. Its not that what He knows is what we will do, but rather that what we do makes what He knows.

More later.



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SargeSmash on 09 May 2012

Here's the real paradox:  the only true freedom to be found is slavery to Jesus Christ.  So in some ways, your statement about us being "slaves" to God is correct.  We were created to glorify God.  That is our purpose.  Yet He gave us the choice not to do so...  because us choosing to glorify Him when we have the option to not do so is even more glorifying than if we were simply created robots to worship Him.

Only subservience to Christ brings us true freedom from the sin that binds us.  And God didn't create a few humans destined to commit sins.  Oh, no.  By giving us free will, He guaranteed that we would sin.  And given that we have no way to measure up, we can either continue in that sin, or turn to the one thing that can save us, the source of our very lives, which would be Him.  God can redeem the vilest sinner.  Hitler himself could have been saved had he repented and turned to God.  That doesn't mean that he wouldn't be held accountable for his actions on this Earth, but he would have avoided the hell that he (and all of the rest of us) richly deserved.



richardhutnik on 09 May 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
richardhutnik said:

Know about, and architecting a situation are two separate things.  Here is something for you:  Is it not possible, if God can do anything, to design the universe so everything ends up the way that God would want, while people have sufficient autonomy to show true character and their nature, and have the ability to change who they are?  Is it entirely possible, that even in the suffering, it is possible that that could work for a greater good?  In other word, local autonomy with global deterministic outcome.

If you want to ponder the part of human suffering further, read the Book of Job, if you haven't already.

From a logical standpoint, what you are getting into is paradoxes regarding prediction.  If you can totally see the future with 100% certainty, does that means that you can't change it.  A paradox side to this is people want to see the future with absolute certainty so they can avoid bad things happening (or in some cases make wagers to benefit from the outcome).  At that point, then the predicting ends up being useless.   Beyond this, if accepted, then the idea is that people want to put them in the center of the universe, so what they can do will generate outcomes they desire, with absolute certainty, so they can be able to run things as they like.


Bolded: No, it is not. Or at least not by logic as we perceive it. God cannot be able to create a scenario in which he cannot forsee each and every event that will occur within it. That would be like I said before: God creating a rock that is so heavy that he cannot lift it.

Underlined: That is an example that I've used myself, but it does not hold in this discussion. For witnessing the future to be useless you would have to be affected by time yourself during the process. God, on the other hand, is outside of the entire time dimension and has all the tools that he needs (his 'almightyness') to witness and reshape the future.

Why do you consider local free well impossible to be combined with global determinism, where the architech of the environment knows how things turn out and allows them to do so?  In short, the game gets rigged so the architect gets what the architect wants, but allows agents in the system to do what they will, within limits?

You also have to ponder whether God would care about the temporary shape of small details.