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Forums - General Discussion - The Abrahamic Religions make No Sense

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Underlined: That's exactly what I am doing. Weight has nothing to do with size, it's about a magnetic force (which in this case is unlimitedly strong). God is not lifting the rock if He removes this force.


Weight Force relies on Mass and Gravity. 

GRAVITY must be present in order for a mass to exert Weight force.

LIFTING means moving an object from ONE SPACE TO ANOTHER. In order to move a rock from one space to another you need suffecient space. Then the qustion should be. "Can God move a rock from one location in space to another that is larger than possible?" In order for the rock to not be able to move from one space to another, it would have to be larger than space itself. However, it is impossible for a rock to be larger than space, as space will always adjust itself to cover the space of the rock. If the supposed rock was out of space-time dimension, then the question would not make sense, because it would be impossible to move an object from one location in space to another if there is no space to begin with, meaning the faulting is with the logic of the question and not God's capabilities.

----

Limitless Mass results in limitless magnetic force (gravity. Which results, in our dimention, black holes. Black Holes which is proven to move through out space. How can it move? we dont know but ,as we know, a black hole is present in the centre of the milkyway galaxy. A galaxy which moves throughout space. 


You've got the entire definition of 'lifting' wrong. If I roll a ball from one place to another, I still haven't lifted it. If I pick up an object in space and move it from one place to another, I never lifted it. Lifting is when you force something in the opposite direction of gravity, and your argument is based on otherwise.


Lift translation: Raise to a higher position or level. Higher level to the proposed ground or horizon. This still translates to a movement in space OPPOSITE to the proposed level of the floor. No gravity is requred for this type of movement. 

Lifting force however is diferent. 

The ball you have rolled had external forces interferring with it. Chemical potential energy and Gravitational potential energy-Kinetic energy. 

Your proposed "Rock" should then be perfectly stationary in order for you to "Lift it". However, the this state of movement (perfectly stationary) can not be achieved in a three dimentional world. Atoms "vibrate" in our dimention and the only way to make them stationary is to achieve absolute zero. (-232 degrees celceus). Which is not possible in our dimention. As a perfect vacuum cannot be achieved. Thus the rock lifts it self from the vibrations of the very atoms that makes itself up, no matter how small the distnce it made the rock "lift" from the ground. 

Then you may ask. God can you make a "rock" that has absolut zero energy storage and lift it?

This is like asking God to make a square circle. As no possible matter contains zero energy can exist in the three dimentional world. You may ask God to Lift a rock in the fourth dimentional world. Lift which exists only in a three dimentional world and not any higher. Which then makes the whole thing illogical. 

---

If you still want to press on with your "Lift force" then here it is. 

Draw the ground and draw a rock and label therock Mass = Limitless

On a second frame, draw the rock raised on a higher level while labelling it Mass = Limitless.

Easily done, by a higher dimentional being. 

 

(I have to go to sleep)



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Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

You've got the entire definition of 'lifting' wrong. If I roll a ball from one place to another, I still haven't lifted it. If I pick up an object in space and move it from one place to another, I never lifted it. Lifting is when you force something in the opposite direction of gravity, and your argument is based on otherwise.


Lift translation: Raise to a higher position or level. Higher level to the proposed ground or horizon. This still translates to a movement in space OPPOSITE to the proposed level of the floor. No gravity is requred for this type of movement. 

Lifting force however is diferent. 

The ball you have rolled had external forces interferring with it. Chemical potential energy and Gravitational potential energy-Kinetic energy. 

Your proposed "Rock" should then be perfectly stationary in order for you to "Lift it". However, the this state of movement (perfectly stationary) can not be achieved in a three dimentional world. Atoms "vibrate" in our dimention and the only way to make them stationary is to achieve absolute zero. (-232 degrees celceus). Which is not possible in our dimention. As a perfect vacuum cannot be achieved. Thus the rock lifts it self from the vibrations of the very atoms that makes itself up, no matter how small the distnce it made the rock "lift" from the ground. 

Then you may ask. God can you make a "rock" that has absolut zero energy storage and lift it?

This is like asking God to make a square circle. As no possible matter contains zero energy can exist in the three dimentional world. You may ask God to Lift a rock in the fourth dimentional world. Lift which exists only in a three dimentional world and not any higher. Which then makes the whole thing illogical. 

---

If you still want to press on with your "Lift force" then here it is. 

Draw the ground and draw a rock and label therock Mass = Limitless

On a second frame, draw the rock raised on a higher level while labelling it Mass = Limitless.

Easily done, by a higher dimentional being. 

 

(I have to go to sleep)


I have no idea of why you put so much weight into this certain example when it's the principle that matters, which is the god paradox. God cannot create a free will that He has no control over, because that would mean that He also is able to create a God that is mightier than himself (as previously mentioned).

Side note: The "God lifting a rock" example obviously implied that the rock was affected by gravity. You can't change the circumstances in a concrete example when you want to prove a point.



Jumpin said:
Rath said:
TheProphet said:
Yes, the question of omnipotence vs free will has challenged our best minds for centuries. I am sure there will be no end to this debate. And it will certainly not have an impact on whether people believe in God or not. There is far to much scientific evidence of design making the free will argument just a minor philosophical curiosity.

However, on this subject I would like to make a couple of points. God created man in His own image. That means that man has the same free will that God does. That means that man can make free decisions independent of what God may want. It is completely up to us what we decide. An almighty God can do anything. So therefore an almighty God could create beings with free will he could not predict. He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He.

To support this argument I would just ask you to read the story of Noah's flood. Obviously the people of earth were behaving badly and of no use to God so he started over again with His creation, taking the best of the best. This story clearly indicates the humanity has a free will to reject virtue and God, but at a price. It also shows that God does not necessarily know how things will turn out otherwise he would not have to clean the slate and start over.

Even if there was evidence that a god existed that would not mean it was the Abrahamic god. As the free will against omniscience contradiction shows that the Abrahamic god as literally described makes no sense that would imply that any creator god was not the Abrahamic god.

As for your point "He would not be almighty if He couldn't make a being with free will would He." What you're describing is the god paradox - is it possible for a god to limit itself? If god can limit his ability to see the future then he loses his omnipotence when he does so, if god cannot limit his ability to see the future then he is in not omnipotent in the first place. As such omnipotence is not logically consistent.

I went over something like this further up the post, but omnipotence or omniscience does not mean a being has been granted the ability to see the future. The ability to see the future is incoherent with the rules of logic.

In order to see the future, it would one of two things.
1. A fourth dimension that can be traveled along.
2. The ability to predict with absolute certainty all events of the Universe.

Point 1 is incoherent with what we know scientifically. Time is not a fourth dimension; it cannot be travelled back and forth along like in science fiction films such as back to the Future.
Point 2 is not possible due to the existence of random and abstract factors. There would be absolutely no way to view the future with absolute certainty. The best one could do is calculate probability.

The ability to see the future is not inconsistent with the rules of logic, you aren't even really making that claim. Your points both are that it's inconsistent with the rules of physics - something which I'd assume a God is above.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:

Lift translation: Raise to a higher position or level. Higher level to the proposed ground or horizon. This still translates to a movement in space OPPOSITE to the proposed level of the floor. No gravity is requred for this type of movement. 

Lifting force however is diferent. 

The ball you have rolled had external forces interferring with it. Chemical potential energy and Gravitational potential energy-Kinetic energy. 

Your proposed "Rock" should then be perfectly stationary in order for you to "Lift it". However, the this state of movement (perfectly stationary) can not be achieved in a three dimentional world. Atoms "vibrate" in our dimention and the only way to make them stationary is to achieve absolute zero. (-232 degrees celceus). Which is not possible in our dimention. As a perfect vacuum cannot be achieved. Thus the rock lifts it self from the vibrations of the very atoms that makes itself up, no matter how small the distnce it made the rock "lift" from the ground. 

Then you may ask. God can you make a "rock" that has absolut zero energy storage and lift it?

This is like asking God to make a square circle. As no possible matter contains zero energy can exist in the three dimentional world. You may ask God to Lift a rock in the fourth dimentional world. Lift which exists only in a three dimentional world and not any higher. Which then makes the whole thing illogical. 

---

If you still want to press on with your "Lift force" then here it is. 

Draw the ground and draw a rock and label therock Mass = Limitless

On a second frame, draw the rock raised on a higher level while labelling it Mass = Limitless.

Easily done, by a higher dimentional being. 

 

(I have to go to sleep)


I have no idea of why you put so much weight into this certain example when it's the principle that matters, which is the god paradox. God cannot create a free will that He has no control over, because that would mean that He is also able to create a God that is mightier than himself (as previously mentioned).

Side note: The "God lifting a rock" example obviously implied that the rock was affected by gravity. You can't change the circumstances in a concrete example when you want to prove a point.


Fine if you want a solid answer. Then ill give it to you. 

The real question is

"Can an omnipotnent being create a rock that the omnipotent being cant lift?"

1 -It is in the law of physics that a matter with limitless mass cannot be created in a three dimentional dimention. (Yes I said it in Black holes and I correct myself, im sorry). For a limitless mass will have enough magnetic force (Gravity) to "suck up" space itself. Therefore, a limitless mass of a rock cannot be created. Its illogical. Its like asking God to make a square circle. 

The fact remains that great masses such as neutron stars and black holes will result in AMAZING gravitational force. Imagine what a limiless mass can do. The second it exists is the second we disappear. 

(Illogical second point because EVERY matter in the universe produces gravity, in this second point God eliminated the magnetic force of the rock)

2 -If you want a rock that no one can lift. We have to take in to account that as long as you want a "ground" to exist, the rock will then exert gravitational potential energy againts the ground. The "ground" then has to make a counter force (resistance) againts the rock in order for the ground to stay in one piece or NOT be dented. As the rock then has a limitless mass, it then produces limitless weight force agains the ground. The ground then has to produce a limitless amount of resistance. 

In our three dimentional universe, limitless energy DOESNT EXIST. Therefore, it is again illogical. 



Yay!!!

Wh1pL4shL1ve_007 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

I have no idea of why you put so much weight into this certain example when it's the principle that matters, which is the god paradox. God cannot create a free will that He has no control over, because that would mean that He is also able to create a God that is mightier than himself (as previously mentioned).

Side note: The "God lifting a rock" example obviously implied that the rock was affected by gravity. You can't change the circumstances in a concrete example when you want to prove a point.


Fine if you want a solid answer. Then ill give it to you. 

The real question is

"Can an omnipotnent being create a rock that the omnipotent being cant lift?"

1 -It is in the law of physics that a matter with limitless mass cannot be created in a three dimentional dimention. (Yes I said it in Black holes and I correct myself, im sorry). For a limitless mass will have enough magnetic force (Gravity) to "suck up" space itself. Therefore, a limitless mass of a rock cannot be created. Its illogical. Its like asking God to make a square circle. 

The fact remains that great masses such as neutron stars and black holes will result in AMAZING gravitational force. Imagine what a limiless mass can do. The second it exists is the second we disappear. 

(Illogical second point because EVERY matter in the universe produces gravity, in this second point God eliminated the magnetic force of the rock)

2 -If you want a rock that no one can lift. We have to take in to account that as long as you want a "ground" to exist, the rock will then exert gravitational potential energy againts the ground. The "ground" then has to make a counter force (resistance) againts the rock in order for the ground to stay in one piece or NOT be dented. As the rock then has a limitless mass, it then produces limitless weight force agains the ground. The ground then has to produce a limitless amount of resistance. 

In our three dimentional universe, limitless energy DOESNT EXIST. Therefore, it is again illogical. 


Your fixation about finding a logical solution to a god paradox is fascinating. An almighty god wouldn't need physical logic to solve problems (and would be able to create objects with an infinite mass).



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Another question.

Which is more powerful? God or physics?



Jay520 said:
Another question.

Which is more powerful? God or physics?


Well, apparently God created physics so the answer should be obvious.

I'm not sure where you are going with that question. (Was it aimed at religious readers, perhaps?)



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Jay520 said:
Another question.

Which is more powerful? God or physics?


Well, God created physics so the answer should be obvious.

I'm not sure where you are going with that question. (Was aimed at religious readers, perhaps?)



So god created physics, logic, laws of nature, etc? Good

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Tony_Stark said:

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

 There is your same problem again. He didn't know that it could happen; He knew exactly how it would happen. God doesn't go "Oh no, they didn't!" every time someone makes a decision. He has predicted them all.

Well, aside from the obvious flaws in your logic, I see that you keep saying there is a god, which mean you are not an athiest. And if you are, claiming that religion is folly, is just plain ignorant since athieism is, in fact, a religion per Websters dictionary. 

Anyway, more to the point of your OP, and your quoted post, God, as Christians believe him to be, does not "predict" anything, he knows it. Now, I'm a father of three, and as a parent, I understand how this works more than I ever did before I was a parent. You see, God gave us free will, the ability to think independantly, to make our own choices, we are not just another animal roaming this planet, this is why we as a species are so much more "evolved" than any other species on the planet. God knows what our choices and actions will be, but does not intervene because he gave us that free will. That free will is what allows us as humans to grow, to learn what we can and can't do. It is how each of us is able to "grow" as an indivual because every choice has consequences either good or bad, and it is by those consequences that we become a stronger, better person. Now, if I look at this as a parent, I see my oldest. I tell her to clean her toys up, I know that she won't, but because I want her to grow as a person I don't hold her hand and force her to clean up her toys. When she doesn't clean up her toys, she gets a punishment. After a while of doing this, she begins to learn that if she cleans up her toys, she won't get in trouble. If I held her hand and forced her to clean up the toys, she would never learn to do it herself, thus she would, in effect, be a drone. 

Flaws in my logic? Please do elaborate.

I don't really need to, this post, along with pretty much every single one of your posts in this thread thus far are all the "elaboration" that is needed. 

I don't think that there is a God, but kept assuming that there is for the sake of argumentation. And I used the word predict since God can predict everything flawlessly, which is the exact same as knowing. He flawlessly knows everything that will happen because He can predict it.

If you don't think there is a god, why do you keep saying there is one? Your whole stance this entire thread leads me to believe that deep inside, you know there is a god, and that terrifies you. Once again, predicting something and knowing something are two very different situations. I can predict who will win a baseball game...but only after the game is done do I know who won. After the game is done, I cannot predict because I know. 

Bolded: I beg to differ. Many times has God intervened with our free will. Jesus is a great example of this; Were it not for Jesus, lots of people would have acted differently today, effectively affecting our free will. God knew whta would happen if He would not have sent Jesus to Earth, but decided to do so in order to make us make different decision (for the better) throughout our lifetimes. And then there is the Noah's Ark story which Whiplash brought up earlier where God punished the humans for their decisions even before they had their chance to change their mind and ask for forgiveness. Even worse: God knew that he would drown those people before He created them, so why would He create life if it would just end up in pain for the individual and everyone surrounding it?

Wrong again, Jesus NEVER interviened with free will, as such, neither did God. God sent Jesus to this earth for the sole purpose of giving us the ultimate sacrifice, that is why judeo Christians no longer sacrifice animals. Jesus is also the reason many of the ceremonial old testiment laws (such as sacrifices) are no longer practiced. Noah's ark is a prime example of what I said earlier, consequences for ones actions, at no time did God force the people of Earth to obey him, instead, he allowed them to exercise their free will, and thus reap the consequences. Nobody knows the true will of God when it comes to why he created people who he knew would die and most likely be sent to hell, but here is one fact you are overlooking. Those people did not die in vain. They are part of a lesson to future generations, in fact, one could argue that people who do not believe in God are put on this Earth to prove that God gives each of us free will. Anyway, if you believe in God, you likely believe there is life after death, which means our time on Earth is somewhat meaningless, except for the fact that God put us here (per the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis) to watch over the Earth, to take care of it.   

In fact, all Abrahamic religions fall prey to that lack of logic. Why create humans in the first place if you knew exactly which one would end up in heaven and which ones would end up in hell even before creating them? Why create life that is destined to live an ethernity in hell? God is responsible for their misery, He created them, and knew where they would end up. He also know where you and your daughter will end up once you die, and your free will cannot affect that knowlegde as it is determined by God.

No, those people, the ones who choose not to folow God, are solely responsible for their own misery in Hell. This is so typical of you people, you can't stand taking responsability for your own actions so you try to blame anybody you can. Fact of the matter is, if we didn't have free will, nobody would go to hell, we would be living in The Garden of Eden, things like the Flood, Sodam and Gomorrah, and the tower of Babel would never have happened. But then, we would not have the ability to think for ourselves, to determin what is wrong and right, we would, in essence, be another animal on this planet.   

 

Instead of thanking God for His support (which people who are born in Africa and who keeps stealing things cannot do), you should be glad that you are living the fortunate life that you are living instead of being born to simply go to hell. Be aware that the underlined in your quote box also functions as evidence that everything is determined.

Ah, sadly, once again, your premise is completely void of any logic. The people of Africa, many generations ago, would have known about God, they chose either not to believe, or not to pass the stories on down through the generations. There are missionaries in Africa spreading the Gospel, which the African people can choose to believe or not, and we do not, infact know, that God will send them all to Hell if they do not know of him, and lastly, nobody goes to Hell for stealing, that just shows how ignorant you are ON THIS SUBJECT ( a little disclaimer for the ban happy mods ) in fact, Jesus told one of the theives who was being crucified on a cross next to him, that he would see the thief in heaven. Also, the quoted text of mine that you underlined only serves to solidify my point. God doesn't want anybody to go to Hell, but he gives everybody free will, he knows the choices they will make and instead of turning them into mindless zombies so they can go to Heaven, he allows them to make the choices even though it will inevitable lead them to Hell. This really isn't rocket science, re-read my parenting example and actually think about it this time, while it's a little less serious, it is a perfect real world example of how this whole "free will" thing works.  

 





"with great power, comes great responsibility."

IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
richardhutnik said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

Your ignorance makes me sick at this point. Try look at the contexts before making assumptions. Morals has nothing to do with sins and does not exclusively go through religious peoples' minds. This is a thread about religion, nothing else. Read the OP again if you are still confused about this thread's topic.

Ok, I got it.  The purpose of this thread is to set up an argument against religion, where you get to shell religion from a high distance with artillery barrages, because you want to deconvert people.  It is NOT about discussing any issues that connect with it that may validate or invalidate it, like whether determinism is valid or not, or whether or not ethics exists in regards to whether or not sin exists.  You just aren't comfortable with this at all.  You just want to monologue against religion, and everything associated with it, because you are on a crusade to deconvert people.  It is your agenda piece, with in the end, you have the desire to change minds on gay marriage, as your main goal.

In short, you really need to get a blog somewhere and don't allow people to post comments.  You show little interest or regard in discussing anything.  And reading your little post on foreknowledge = lack of free will, doesn't have anything to do with morals or ethics at all.  What I can conclude is you have an agenda to shell Abrahamic religions, using this forum.  You have made up your mind that it makes no sense, and nothing to you will change it.  Saying it makes no sense has nothing to do with whether or not it makes sense, but merely is a salvo shell being fired from a position you don't want to be challenged or attacked.

The thrust?  You have made up your mind, and are as narrow minded as religious folks.  Difference is that you really don't have anything to offer humanity in your narrowmindeness.  At least from religion I got a few bucks that helped me keep my car on the road.


Bolded: Why are you so obsessed with claiming that? Gay marriage was not on my mind when I made this thread, everything regarding unjustified actions in the name of God was.

Underlined: Or maybe you should just stop caring about my opinion (as you claim to) and stop making off-topic comments full of ridiculos assumptions and conclusions? You should be glad that I haven't reported you for trolling because you are really disturbing the discussion going on here. At the moment, everyone manage to stay on topic but you.

And even my purpose with this thread has nothing to do with the discussion. Discussing the OP is not hard, just express your opinion on the subject and be done with it.

Well, at least if you did focus on Gay marriage, it would have some practical focus.  As it is now, ok, you aren't just about gay marriage, but a rage of other things you considered "unjustified actions".  Gay marriage is one.

In regards to other things, you have gone all over the map.  Moment people think they have things nailed down, you end up going, "nope, it isn't about that... it is about this".  So, it ends up being about "there is no sin", and then the look at sin is done, in regards to violation of ethics.  Then you go, "nope, it isn't about ethics".  In the end you showed your only purpose is to create a one sided agenda piece on here to shell people's religious beliefs, in order to deconvert them.  You can go and ask a moderator to look at this thread and see who is trolling here.  What I see from you, is you are trolling with this thread, and have expressed it as a narrow piece meant to shell Abrahamic religious beliefs.  You have an agenda, meant to knock down people, and deconvert them.  You have clearly stated it here.  

If the original post isn't discussed, it is because you have chosen to get away from it, because you say it isn't about that.