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Forums - Nintendo - Malstrom equates 3D Mario with poison

 

Do you want more Super Mario Bros.?

Yes, I am smart. 94 75.81%
 
No, I am an idiot. 16 12.90%
 
No, I want Nintendo to fail. 13 10.48%
 
Total:123
RolStoppable said:
happydolphin said:

When on this subject, it's really important for us to set the goalposts right. Is it awesomeness or sales that count? Because in many and most cases these are not super compatible (see above).

First and foremost, it's about awesomeness. It isn't so much about the sales of the games that spawned, but the fact that they did spawn, because there was a market for them. Not all games will succeed (or on the same scale), the main point is that they are being made.

Now you're talking. If this can lead to a New Super Metroid, one that's really well made (like DKR), or New Punch Out!!! I would pay lots of money for a very well made retro (litterally retro) game. Same goes for aLttP.



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2d platforming is doing fine! Look outside Nintendo consoles, too.

I mean, I'm pretty sure Super Meat Boy sold more than Earthworm Jim, Contra and Bonkers combined!
And things like VVVVVV are brilliant. And other things like Shantae are retro!

The genre is fine, it does not need a savior now - unlike the dark 32-128bit age.



RolStoppable said:
happydolphin said:

When on this subject, it's really important for us to set the goalposts right. Is it awesomeness or sales that count? Because in many and most cases these are not super compatible (see above).

First and foremost, it's about awesomeness. It isn't so much about the sales of the games that spawned, but the fact that they did spawn, because there was a market for them. Not all games will succeed (or on the same scale), the main point is that they are being made.

Well, isn't "awesomeness" a person's opinion, not a fact? If you scale games upon that "awesomeness" scale then you can have no real winner.



RolStoppable said:

All the games you listed were not released during the last ten years (which is what a decade is).

You made your own counterpoint for Yoshi's Island, it only pretended to be the next REAL Mario game. And Super Mario World wasn't really a proper evolution of Super Mario Bros. 3, because the number of power-ups was drastically reduced. This is one of the reasons why SMW isn't seen as a clearly superior game to SMB3, even though it should have been due to it being a 16-bit game while SMB3 was an NES game. SMW was great, albeit slightly disappointing. It isn't so much evolution as stagnation. Better than SMB3 in some aspects, but worse in others.

So how are NSMB and NSMB Wii evolutions? The DS game added new moves like double, triple and wall jumps. The Wii game added simultaneous multiplayer. Length and variety of levels were increased for both games, non-obnoxious collectibles were added (the three Star Coins).

Meanwhile, Mega Man is stuck with eight robot master stages and a few Wily levels. Didn't evolve from the NES days at all, except for the removal of slowdowns. Ninja Gaiden moved into a different genre, so it doesn't count at all.

What has DKCR to do with the evolution of SMB? DKCR had to evolve in and of itself which it did mostly in production values. Animal buddies were sadly removed for the most part (only Rambi is left); the lack of water stages might not be missed. Regardless, the number of levels increased considerably which is what you would expect from a modern game and where Mega Man failed hard. DKCR also has a time attack mode and well thought out level design.

Admittedly, the NSMB games and DKCR are not perfect and leave room for improvement, but that is forgiven by the market because it feels so good to have these games back. The next time around there needs to be put more effort into (Nintendo in production values; Retro in some features like the animal buddies), but that isn't an insurmountable task. If Nintendo takes good care of Super Mario Bros., everything will be well. Unfortunately, the threat of including Miis doesn't bode well. It gives me the impression that Nintendo treats SMB like a casual game while 3D Mario enjoys getting all the goods. If Miis were premium treatment, they would have already been in 3D Mario.

And that is exactly what I didn't like of the NSMB direction. DKCR is a different story and caters to our demographics better (we want the old stuff, well made), but NSMB did not trace the direction for awesomeness, it traced a path for sales. It would be really a wish for Nintendo to return to the original look of Mario, add some extra physics (triple jump, more power-ups, boundary-breaking dynamics like the giant mario), all at a bargain pricetag, and they have my purchase. But is it possible? I don't want to get my hopes up. As for NSMB though, I'm already over it. After enjoying the DS one alot, I just wouldn't care for another similar experience. It would have to go in the direction you seem to be describing, but they're a business. From what we can tell it seems like they'll be repeating NSMB. Maybe not though, who knows?

For Megaman, to be fair they did release the X-series on the Super NES, which were excellent games (I haven't played those on the PS though). The return to the roots was well appreciated, but true a revival would be even more earth-shattering. The same goes for Ninja Gaiden.

Also, what did you think of Donkey Kong Jungle Beat? I loved that game, were you turned off by the Konga controls?



Malstrom is a bit... loony, if you ask me. As someone who grew up playing both Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Land 2 (and Sonic the Hedgehog, on an unrelated note), I have an appreciation for both 3D and 2D Mario, and I don't see why anyone would want only one to exist. It was a drag for those 10 years or so when there were no new 2D Marios, sure, but let's not have that same drought with 3D Mario.

One of my biggest issues with Malstrom is his inconsistency in his arguments. Just in this article he gives a whole list of games that "wouldn't exist" if it weren't for Super Mario Bros., yet neglects to recognize games like Banjo-Kazooie and Psychonauts -- and maybe even some of Naughty Dog's work -- that clearly drew inspiration from Super Mario 64.

He doesn't like 3D Zelda either, frequently singling out "Aonuma Zelda" as something to be hated. But why does he use sales figures to demonstrate the supposed irrelevance of and lack of demand for 3D Mario while ignoring the fact that the two best-selling Zelda games are 3D? That the last true 2D Zelda (Minish Cap) was the worst-selling game in the series? Likewise, 3D Zelda has influenced loads of amazing games -- Darksiders is an obvious one.

Malstrom just has a one-track mind. He refuses to acknowledge anything that doesn't affirm his confirmation bias. Part of me even wants to agree with him, because I love 2D Mario and Zelda as much as the next guy. But I can't follow his contradictory logic.

You know what games wouldn't exist without 2D Mario? 3D Mario. The food begat the poison. You cannot have one without the other. So long as we have 2D Mario, 3D Mario is inevitable.



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I find myself agreeing with about 90% of Malstroms ideas and rants, but I don't quite get his hatred for 3D Mario. While I definitly agree classic 2D Mario is superior, 3D Mario games are still of high quality in their own right and a lot of fun, particularly Mario 64 and Galaxy 2. Even if you don't like the 3D Marios, I don't really see the harm in them as long as 2D Mario games continue to be made along side of them, which seems to be what Nintendo is going for.

 Malstrom is a gaming traditionalist, and a hardcore one at that. So I guess I can see why he clings so much to 2D Mario and spits venom at any changes in the series, but I think changes in franchises and gameplay should be welcomed in an industry where there as SO many rehashes and copies.



SMH.  Where to start...

"I don’t see 3d Land selling 3DS systems, inspiring more games like it, or filling up Nintendo’s coffers with money. What will it take to drop the sick, sick 3d obsession?"

Well, 3DS sales did actually rise with Mario 3D Land, although that was also on the heels of a price drop, and right around the holiday season, so its hard to attribute that success to one title.  Super Mario 3D Land's first 10 weeks saw more sales than NSMBDS.  The game is selling quite well, and I'm sure it has made Nintendo a hefty profity.  As for inspiring games like it... Ummm lol?  The game came out around half a year ago.  I'm not saying there is a surge of yet to be announced Mario 3D Land knock offs, but with development cycles the way they are, the earliest we would see such a thing is E3 this year. 

But instead of pointing out ridiculous quotes, let's examine the deeper themes.

First off, the whole technology aspect apparently went over the author's head.  The decline in 2-D games happened, not surprisingly, when 3D capable systems came out.  Naturally, the market typically craves the new and unique.  Did games like Donkey Kong Country, Castlevania, Mega Man and Contra disappear because of Mario 64?  No, they disappeared because new technology made 3D gaming possible.  Likewise, Mario 64 didn't singlehandedly spawn 3D platformers.  The growth of the genre was a result of the technology that made it possible, although naturally many developers took cues from Mario 64.  Video killed the radio star.  To ignore this massive change in technology and place the blame for decline in 2-D gaming solely on 3-D Mario's shoulders is a laughable oversimplification.

It's unconfirmed, but a couple of developers (SNK/Capcom for instance) have talked about Sony's dislike for 2-D gaming.  The legend goes that Sony often would not approve 2-D games because they wanted the PS1/2 to be seen as modern 3D systems.  Regardless of whether or not this is true, it would be silly to ignore Sony's rise to prominence in the gaming market as a factor in the decline of 2-D gaming.

Suddenly 2-D gaming is on the rise again!  And this is 100% because of New Super Mario Bros Wii!  Right..?  Well, uhhhhh... not really.


To be honest, there aren't very many successful 2-D retail games hitting consoles.  We have Little Big Planet, which sold very well despite coming out a year before NSMBWii.  We have Donkey Kong Country Returns.  We have Kirby, who had a 2-D game in development since the end of the Gamecube era.  And we have... uhhhh... wait, where exactly are all these amazing 2D games that have been coming out?


Oh there they are! They're on XBLA and the PSN!  Hmmmm... is the surge of 2-D just because Nintendo made a Mario game that sold very well... or could this have something to do with the fact that there is now a new method of distrubution where smaller, more cheaply developed games can be released at a lesser cost?

Considering that New Super Mario Bros Wii came out in November of 09, and Mega Man 9 came out in September of 08, I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say that New Super Mario Bros Wii had very little to do with Mega Man 9's creation.  So, let me answer your question...

"Without NSMB, do you think you would have seen the new Mega Man games?"

Why yes Mr. Malstrom.  Yes, I think we would have seen the new Mega Man games without NSMBWii.  I lol at you.

Now, you might look to me and say "No, he was talking about NSMB for the DS (Btw good job distinguishing between the two different NSMB games in your article)! That's the game that started all of this!!!"


Well, if we're taking the handheld market into account then...

Between the time of Yoshi's Island and NSMB DS we had 4 2D Mega Man games.  5 if you want to count Mega Man and Bass.  6 if you want to count powered up.  We also saw not one, not two, but three 2D Sonic games.  Kirby saw 2 original handheld 2-D adventures along with a remake.  We had 2 2-D Castlevania games, and even 2 2-D Metroids.  I have to assume we're not talking about the handheld market, although the author makes reference to Mario 3D Land, so maybe he's just had his head stuck in a hole for a while.

In conclusion, I don't think there is a shred of merit in that whole article.  Perhaps with a bit more research or evidence a decent point could have been made, but that's not the case.



If Nintendo continued on with 2D Mario without the existence of 3D Mario, I doubt the series would be where it is now. 3D anything on a console is just the sign of the time then in gaming. That's what created the 3D Mario, and if anything it took the Mario series to a whole different level. Besides, Nintendo would have been criticized by gamers and analysts alike for continuing 2D Mario, for not ever evolving the series. It's nostalgia for a reason. Thanks to 3D Mario. Now seems to be sign of the times to bring back the series to its roots. The different Mario series is actually what makes Nintendo great market strategist. They know how to cater to different tastes of fun.

They also know how to not over saturate the market, not just with Mario but with many of their IPs. That's why I think there will always be a market for Nintendo.

In terms of whether which one is influential, it is probably debatable. What I do disagree about, however, is calling 3D Mario a poison.



the_dengle said:
Malstrom is a bit... loony, if you ask me. As someone who grew up playing both Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Land 2 (and Sonic the Hedgehog, on an unrelated note), I have an appreciation for both 3D and 2D Mario, and I don't see why anyone would want only one to exist. It was a drag for those 10 years or so when there were no new 2D Marios, sure, but let's not have that same drought with 3D Mario.

One of my biggest issues with Malstrom is his inconsistency in his arguments. Just in this article he gives a whole list of games that "wouldn't exist" if it weren't for Super Mario Bros., yet neglects to recognize games like Banjo-Kazooie and Psychonauts -- and maybe even some of Naughty Dog's work -- that clearly drew inspiration from Super Mario 64.

He doesn't like 3D Zelda either, frequently singling out "Aonuma Zelda" as something to be hated. But why does he use sales figures to demonstrate the supposed irrelevance of and lack of demand for 3D Mario while ignoring the fact that the two best-selling Zelda games are 3D? That the last true 2D Zelda (Minish Cap) was the worst-selling game in the series? Likewise, 3D Zelda has influenced loads of amazing games -- Darksiders is an obvious one.

Malstrom just has a one-track mind. He refuses to acknowledge anything that doesn't affirm his confirmation bias. Part of me even wants to agree with him, because I love 2D Mario and Zelda as much as the next guy. But I can't follow his contradictory logic.

You know what games wouldn't exist without 2D Mario? 3D Mario. The food begat the poison. You cannot have one without the other. So long as we have 2D Mario, 3D Mario is inevitable.

It was more like 15 years without a real 2D Mario. 

What Naughty Dog works are you refering to?  Crash and the first Jak took after 2D Mario(It's just traversing Z and Y axis with pretty 3d graphics instead of X in Y axis in 2d though they switch to that perspective pretty often too).  Jak 2 & 3 took more from GTA 3 than 3D mario.  

DarkSiders is far more like God of War than Zelda. God of War takes after DMC not Zelda. Do you play these games or just think anything with a 3d avatar running around and jumping has something to do with Mario 64 or running around in 3d slashing things means it's Zelda? 



Malstrom is a sad, out of touch individual. He's been spewing nonsense for years now.