Forums - General Discussion - How to disprove free will using basic logic

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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
BasilZero said:


In the case of a higher being, what if I say the events that are occurring are indeed random and natural but not affected by a higher being? What if the higher being is a spectator.

For an example, a person has a ant farm, the person watches the ants through the glass case but doesnt do anything that would affect the case, the farm or the ants themselves. Whatever happens such as a section falling off and dropping on ants or w/e, was all just by randomness affected more than likely by natural occurences such as Gravity? What would you say to that?


I would simply say that it was determined that the section would fall since weak section + gravity = section falling.

What if determined means "Foresight" and not direct intervention?



    

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Hey, but the fact that you're influenced by other people's choices doesn't change anything. It certainly doesn't make your decisions less random/deterministic than theirs. To break the joint randomness/deterministic nature of the whole process, you have to posit the existence of free will, like you posit the fact that you're being rational rather than a mere puppet of material processes leading to what you call your mind. As I said above, the whole point of the opening post is incoherent in that, if it's true, then what we're saying is meaningless because we were led to say it by mechanical processes in our brain. Who ensures that those processes lead to truth? A magnificent "truthfulness law" coming from God knows where?



If you were to rewind time and watch the flip of a coin over and over would you expect the results to change or to stay the same?

As for this proving no free will one way or the other. How does someone choosing to make the same decision in a certain set of circumstances mean it wasn't free will. Some decisions are easy for people and many things would need to change to change the persons mind.

While if the decisions were different could mean it's a harder decision or just a less committed one. I don't see how you can just dismissed it as random though. Seems like you are oversimplifying to make a point.

If you rule out all free will as predetermined or random. You clearly think that free will doesn't exist and will argue any way to say so. So I'm curious do you feel you were predetermined to come to that conclusion or do you feel you came to it randomly? If your response to this destined to happen? Or will it just be from random happenings?



Troll_Whisperer said:
Azamondeps3 said:
Troll_Whisperer said:
Azamondeps3 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
pezus said:
You're taking a very strict view of the meaning of free here. It's all about what free means.


If you have a free will, then you can shape the future. If you don't have a free will then the future and all your future decision are predetermined or determined by randomness, giving you no control of your actions.


In every moment in time we all have a choice but in that moment we can only make one choice thats the point, think about this if we have free speach we can say anything we want, but we cant because we are bound by rules and law so is that complete freedom of speach? 



But you're totally capable of saying things that are outside of those bounds and face the consequences, if you so choose to. Also, the law and social rules themselves are made by people's choices, they're not universal laws that bound you.

Yes you can say them but because of these laws you are bound to a false sence of freedom, same with free will the law is physics and we are bound in that law we can do what we want but only within the law of physics 



You can't break the laws of physics but you can break the law. Some people have purposedly broken the law and changed society or history. Those are real choices you can make, it's not comparable to the laws of physics. I think you guys are taking a very strict stance on what being free means, read my post above for more detail.

For me we are in a free universe I believe in libertarianism which is that we have free will and that reality is indetermined im bound by rules yes but I still have the choice and thats the point 



BasilZero said:

What if determined means "Foresight" and not direct intervention?


I'm not entirely sure about what that means in Swedish. But if it means what I think it means then I really don't understand as "determined" is a word with one meaning.



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IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
BasilZero said:

What if determined means "Foresight" and not direct intervention?


I'm not entirely sure about what that means in Swedish. But if it means what I think it means then I really don't understand as "determined" is a word with one meaning.


No I mean, your own personal view of determined means something that is altered or decided by a higher being to occur, what if the higher being is just speculating and not actually directly conflicting with whatever is going on, what if its just a random set of events that occurred for whatever reason or no reason.



    

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Wonktonodi said:
If you were to rewind time and watch the flip of a coin over and over would you expect the results to change or to stay the same?

As for this proving no free will one way or the other. How does someone choosing to make the same decision in a certain set of circumstances mean it wasn't free will. Some decisions are easy for people and many things would need to change to change the persons mind.

While if the decisions were different could mean it's a harder decision or just a less committed one. I don't see how you can just dismissed it as random though. Seems like you are oversimplifying to make a point.

If you rule out all free will as predetermined or random. You clearly think that free will doesn't exist and will argue any way to say so. So I'm curious do you feel you were predetermined to come to that conclusion or do you feel you came to it randomly? If your response to this destined to happen? Or will it just be from random happenings?


I obviously cannot correctly answer that but yes, I believe that everything is determined.

 

My point by this thread is though that I see two options:

1. Everything is determined

2. Randomness shapes our and nature's actions 

 

In any case, we do not shape our future (using free will). It's either determined or random.



really weak.



IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

 

In any case, we do not shape our future (using free will) in any case. It's either determined or random.


Why cant it be both though?

Did you read my earlier response about the doctors/scientists?



    

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BasilZero said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:

I'm not entirely sure about what that means in Swedish. But if it means what I think it means then I really don't understand as "determined" is a word with one meaning.


No I mean, your own personal view of determined means something that is altered or decided by a higher being to occur, what if the higher being is just speculating and not actually directly conflicting with whatever is going on, what if its just a random set of events that occurred for whatever reason or no reason.


I don't believe in a higher being. Mainly because there is no proof of a such thing. But if we assume that everything that happens happens randomly then we still wouldn't have a free will. The will would be random.