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Forums - Sony - Naughty Dog: "We want to change the f***ing industry" with The Last of Us (with a focus on storytelling)

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PullusPardus on 14 December 2011
Rainbird said:
Jay520 said:
I wish people understand that linearity is a style, not an issue, and stop pushing their preffered style down everyone's throat as if it's objectively superior.

Seriously, people need to stop complaining that a game brilliantly executes what it's trying to accomplish. Uncharted was intended to be a linear game, and it's a damn fine one. Everyone knows this fact before going into Uncharted, or any linear game for that matter. Yet people still complain, a lot of times aggressively, that Uncharted isn't the game that they want it to be, something not-Uncharted.

If you prefer games that you can play multiple times with each time producing a different outcome, that's fine, but don't start complaining when Uncharted, or any linear game, doesn't satisfy these wants. If you prefer games that offer tons of multiple playing options, that's fine, but don't start complaining when Uncharted, or any linear game, doesn't satsify these wants. If you don't like games because they're linear, that's fine, but don't go around claiming linearity to be an inferior style of gaming just because you don't like it.

But that's just me.

There's nothing wrong with linearity strictly speaking. My personal beef with linearity starts showing when linearity is used in a way that locks the player out of the experience. For example, Uncharted 2 relies a lot on scripted events, and is very restrictive when it comes to letting the player be a part of the experience. On the other hand, a game like MGS4 is very linear as well, but it still allows the player to play the way they like best or feel is best for the game. You can go through the game without ever being spotted, without ever making a kill or just going at it like a third person shooter for example.

Don't get me wrong, Uncharted 2 is a great game, but the model behind it just doesn't excite me anymore. Which is why I hope The Last Of Us can be something more than the Uncharted games have presented so far, because I think we can do better. And if we can do better, I will continue to support that progress which can be made.

Even if The Last Of Us is scripted as hell, I'll still get it if it's a good game, but if Naughty Dog want to make it a must buy for me, they need to do more.

Wait a minute, weren't you arguing with me for quite some time about the same exact thing you just said? , i thought you were with the linear type games.

guess now people finally see what i mean't.



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Rainbird on 14 December 2011
PullusPardus said:

Wait a minute, weren't you arguing with me for quite some time about the same exact thing you just said? , i thought you were with the linear type games.

guess now people finally see what i mean't.

I probably did, but I can't remember. But what can I say, rollercoaster games lost their shine to me. If the game isn't giving me room to be part of it, it's not going to be a must-play for me.



PullusPardus on 14 December 2011
Rainbird said:
PullusPardus said:

Wait a minute, weren't you arguing with me for quite some time about the same exact thing you just said? , i thought you were with the linear type games.

guess now people finally see what i mean't.

I probably did, but I can't remember. But what can I say, rollercoaster games lost their shine to me. If the game isn't giving me room to be part of it, it's not going to be a must-play for me.


Aww, you can't remember? you got over it , it seems ,  i guess i am really getting worked up with all the sliting my wrist because of that argument 

(just kidding btw >_> ) 



Reasonable on 14 December 2011
Rainbird said:
Reasonable said:
Rainbird said:
Reasonable said:

I also wish when a developer wants to try something people wouldn't argue with the same boring all generalities.  They aren't trying to make every game story lead nor is that their goal.  They want their game to be that way and they want to offer better than the medium has historically in that regard.  Is it really necessary to start panicing for all other genres every time there is a focus by a single developer in a single area?

I'd say it's a natural reaction though. People see something they percieve as being overall damaging to the field, and they push against it. More rationality would certainly be welcome, but it's a polarizing subject, so opinions are bound to clash. On top of that, there is actually a small trend of moving towards more... what to call it... focused experiences? Games that restrict the player in favor of either storytelling, spectacle, cinematic flair or some combination of these basically.

TBH I'd say the trend to online is far stronger than the trend to focused storytelling.  In fact I'd say the trend to open world is stronger than that.  Right now I think for a lot of devs, if you look at sales/success of other games, the view would be:

a) best choice for success is hugely successful online game (you know who)

b) second best choice for success is hugely successful open world game (GTA, RDR, Assassin's Creed, Skyrim, etc)

c) third best choice for success is focused narrative (maybe with some online if we can get it)

There's some crossover though. Games like MW3 and BF3 are prime examples of games where the singleplayer campaign exists for the spectacle and doesn't really try to engage the player. So I think it depends on what criteria you use to mark a game as a particular category, but there is definitely a movement towards open world games as well. Even if GTA, RDR and Skyrim are really just continuing their franchises.

I completely agree about your sentiments on The Last Of Us though. If Naughty Dog can take story telling up a notch in quality, then I'm all for it. But if they want to make it a must buy for me, they have to bring the player into the story.

I understand what you mean.  I think the bolded is the key divergence in terms of where I think ND is going.  They are focusing on you learning about a character (not you) in the traditional narrative sense.  Uncharted is pretty lighthearted overall but in both 2 and 3 there is clearly some nice depth between characters and what kind of character they are.  In short, they are not about brining you into the story as a player so much as using gameplay to allow you to experience a character already defined and locked in.  The obvious analogy for Uncharted is Indiana Jones.  His character is set and you observe and learn it.

However, what I do think they can do - and did do in both U2 and U3 but not constantly - is give you more open gameplay choices.  U3 I thought actually had more variety than U2, and switched between scenarios nicely for the most part.  But if you're going to uncover a character I reckon the whole game just can't be like that.  Sometimes, referring to U3, you can be in an open fight as in the village where there is space and you can chose where to go, how to go about it, etc (and I get the feeling already The Last of Us is going to add a lot more stealth and combat avoidance although that might be an off guess) but sometimes the game has to put you into a tighter experience, such as the fight on the plane, which is a great vingette but I believe almost impossible to open out gameplay wise.  For it to work it has to play out that way.

But I get the feeling from the tone so far plus some aledged art work that this game will have a more open approach to gameplay - where you can fight or avoid or find another route - but that key moments will drive you through a constructed narrative.

On the other hand ND might surprise both of us by solving problems that have plagued every more open world game from GTA to RDR to Assassin's Creed in keeping the character and narrative on track.



Try to be reasonable... its easier than you think...

Jay520 on 14 December 2011
Rainbird said:
Jay520 said:
I wish people understand that linearity is a style, not an issue, and stop pushing their preffered style down everyone's throat as if it's objectively superior.

Seriously, people need to stop complaining that a game brilliantly executes what it's trying to accomplish. Uncharted was intended to be a linear game, and it's a damn fine one. Everyone knows this fact before going into Uncharted, or any linear game for that matter. Yet people still complain, a lot of times aggressively, that Uncharted isn't the game that they want it to be, something not-Uncharted.

If you prefer games that you can play multiple times with each time producing a different outcome, that's fine, but don't start complaining when Uncharted, or any linear game, doesn't satisfy these wants. If you prefer games that offer tons of multiple playing options, that's fine, but don't start complaining when Uncharted, or any linear game, doesn't satsify these wants. If you don't like games because they're linear, that's fine, but don't go around claiming linearity to be an inferior style of gaming just because you don't like it.

But that's just me.

There's nothing wrong with linearity strictly speaking. My personal beef with linearity starts showing when linearity is used in a way that locks the player out of the experience. For example, Uncharted 2 relies a lot on scripted events, and is very restrictive when it comes to letting the player be a part of the experience. On the other hand, a game like MGS4 is very linear as well, but it still allows the player to play the way they like best or feel is best for the game. You can go through the game without ever being spotted, without ever making a kill or just going at it like a third person shooter for example.

Don't get me wrong, Uncharted 2 is a great game, but the model behind it just doesn't excite me anymore. Which is why I hope The Last Of Us can be something more than the Uncharted games have presented so far, because I think we can do better. And if we can do better, I will continue to support that progress which can be made.

Even if The Last Of Us is scripted as hell, I'll still get it if it's a good game, but if Naughty Dog want to make it a must buy for me, they need to do more.



My post was mainly directed at Pullus. I can understand why someone could dislike Uncharted and I understand his views. But lately, he's been complaining so much that it's become an annoyance, and I just really needed to address his post about Uncharted/Crash/Jak. I respect what your saying though (although I'd say comparing any game's freedom to MGS's freedom is a little unfair for the former game, considering MGS is usually considered the epitome of a free, yet linear, game).

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Rainbird on 15 December 2011
Jay520 said:
My post was mainly directed at Pullus. I can understand why someone could dislike Uncharted and I understand his views. But lately, he's been complaining so much that it's become an annoyance, and I just really needed to address his post about Uncharted/Crash/Jak. I respect what your saying though (although I'd say comparing any game's freedom to MGS's freedom is a little unfair for the former game, considering MGS is usually considered the epitome of a free, yet linear, game).

Well, your post is as applicable to me as it is to him. And I don't see how comparing a game as critically acclaimed as Uncharted to the standard set by any other game is unfair.



AdventWolf on 15 December 2011

As long as there is more gameplay than cutscenes.



XanderZane on 15 December 2011

ND is a great company and I'm all for better storytelling with these games. I'm just hoping they can revolutionize the gameplay as well, because if this is similar to Left 4 Dead, Dead Island, Dead Rising, Resident Evil and all those other zombie games, it's going to be criticized as a "me too" game with no originality. I'm hoping that won't be the case, but I have to see the game play. All we got was a CGI trailer so far.



__________________________________________

'gaming till I'm gone'

M.U.G.E.N on 15 December 2011
XanderZane said:
ND is a great company and I'm all for better storytelling with these games. I'm just hoping they can revolutionize the gameplay as well, because if this is similar to Left 4 Dead, Dead Island, Dead Rising, Resident Evil and all those other zombie games, it's going to be criticized as a "me too" game with no originality. I'm hoping that won't be the case, but I have to see the game play. All we got was a CGI trailer so far.


well they have already mentioned that the monsters are NOT the focus of the game..imho that in itself is a big difference



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Player1x3 on 15 December 2011
Metrium said:
Shinobi-san said:
Metrium said:

Me personaly, im starting to find them arrogant. After reading this arcticle, they sound like the entire industry is failing and that they are about to save gamers from bad games. Thats how I felt after reading it.

They are alot of rly good games out there with great story. Also, not everyone wants theyr games to become movie wannabes. Because honnestly, the Uncharted franchise didnt excell at anything except for what actualy makes a good movie. Yes it had great actors, non stop action in cinematics a la Michael Bay, UC2 had a great story. But in my opinion, great actors, nice visuals and great story are all what makes a great movie not a great game (they can certainly be a plus). Uncharted had terrible gameplay for a shooter, uninspired puzzles, bad AI and UC3 had a extremely linear campaign of 8hours. Take away about 1hour for cinematic and you have 7hours of solo content wich for a AAA game so (underservly) praised is pathetic.

I wish Naughty Dog would stop focusing on being B movie wannabes, stop doing interactive movie, and start making VIDEO GAMES again like back in the day with ratchet&clank and Crash Bandicoot.

Also, i know alot of ppl will disagree with me, and idc. I just want you all to know that I did enjoy the uncharted franchise, its just the attitude of Naughty Dog that rly gets on my nerve. How they think so highly of themselves and how they think they do games of better quality because they try to copy movies and how the entire industry should be inspired by them. And worst is those who say that ND are the best game developpers in the world... Everytime I hear that, i cant help but thinking its sarcasm lol.

Will Last of US be a good game? probably... Will it deserve all the hype its getting? I slightly doubt it but only time will tell... Will it ''Change the fucking industry''? I HIGHLY doubt it, except maybe for those who can get easely brain washed by Michael Bayesque cinematics.


I think you misunderstood what they saying...they simply said they want to raise the bar on storytelling in games. And apart from  a few good triple AAA games, story telling is pretty weak in general, even for games that tries to have a significant story component. 

Im pretty sure that arent expecting ALL games to suddenly incorporate an amazing story or some unique way of portraying that story, but only games that focus on it.

Also many people would disagree with you about your views on uncharted and how it doesnt excel at "anything except for what actualy makes a good movie", people like me :)

I also find naughty dog to be one of the more humble developers...and certianly not arrogant just based off how they have dealt with different situations (like the aim issue with U3), interviews and developer videos etc.

Oh and naughty dog didnt make ratchet and clank games think you were refering to jak and daxter



Your right, it was jak and daxter, I need to edit my original post :P thx

 

And when I said that it wasnt excelling at anything, I meant that Uncharted didnt do anything that was better than every other games when it comes to gameplay. For a game that has so many ppl saying that its the best game ever, you would expect it to have something in the gameplay that is either unique or done better than any other games. But instead, everytime I hear arguments on why Uncharted is such a great game, all I always hear is ''great story, awsome graphics, great actors'' and they all seem to give UC3 a pass for its rediculously short campaign, the aiming that is average at best and the fact that not only UC3 in my opinion didnt add anything new when compared to UC2 (except for the multiplayer improvments) it failed to fix alot of problems present since UC1 like the climbing when you jump where your not suposed to for some stupid reason and that you die not because you fell from somewhere rly high but because your character landed somewhere where you were not supposed to go. I remember in UC2, when I was on a roof and I wasnt sure where i was supposed to go, I saw a other roof and i thought to myself ''I can make that jump'', so I succesfully jumped from 1 roof to the other, but I died because that wasnt where I was supposed to go despite the fact that ive seen Drake do jumps way more impressive than this one lol. Those are the kind of problems I had in UC1 and still had in UC3... Also, did Naughty Dog make any changes to the enemies AI between UC1 and UC3, cause I dont think ive ever seen a big difference.

 

But trust me, I LOVED UC2, but I guess because of that, UC3 gave me a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to this franchise. Yes Naughty Dog made 3 rly good games, but I believe that most gamers instead of praising the game like its the holy grail of gaming (have you seen IGN's greg miller's review... gosh) gamers should talk more about these issues because those are the issues that in my opinion will always prevent a good franchise from being great. Lets all stop letting ourselves getting brainwashed by what this franchise has that makes great movies like actors and cinematics with non-stop action (super mario galaxy had non of that and in my opinion is 1 of the few true masterpiece of this generation) and lets focus on gameplay.

 

And now, the fact that Naughty Dog is talking about how theyr focus for Last of Us is cinematics and storytelling, I fear that history will repeat itself and that despite all of this the game will still be praised for the wrong reasons exactly like Uncharted.


Uncharted most certanly doesnt have ''ridicilously short campaign''. Their UC 2 campaign is actualy longer than Mario, Donkey Kong, COD, Halo, Alan Wake and LOTS of other action games. I mean, I know its fun to hate on Uncharted now because it reached mainstream popularity, but geez, at least come up with justifying reasons. Aiming is not medicore, it may be to you, but thats not a fact, just an opinnion, learn to aim better. AS for ''addng anything new'' Mulitplayer saw GIGANTIC improvments, than there is also split screen, 3D, and very improved co-op.  As for SP campaign,  they completly renovated melee combat, they added more to stealth, they improved shooting combat and platforming also saw some tweaks. And AI in UC3 is MUCH different than the AI in 1 and 2. Go actually compare it. IS it much? Not really, but it certanly brings more to the table than your yearly 2D Mario, COD, Halo or Assasins Creed by now.