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Forums - General - Is religion still relevant in modern society?

d21lewis said:
This thread really does something for me.....can't quite put my finger on it.......

You find everything sexually arousing.



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padib said:

If I may, and I will be careful in my response so as to be devoid of any bigotry, free of blame. If there is anything wrong in the redaction of my post, be it impoliteness, rudeness, disrespect or intolerance towards other views, I will leave it up to you to demonstrate.

To explain.

Everyone is born a certain way different than another. We know from the development of an infant in the womb, that hormonal development can cause higher or lower levels of sexual hormones in the infant's development. These levels later dictate sexual orientation in the person. This is a given.

For regular cases, please allow me to exclude for the time being hermaphrodites, I'll assume the individual to be either male or female, with the reproductive system respective to their sex.

Given a male that developed with a lower level of testosterone, said male could have a sexual desire towards the same sex, biologically speaking. That desire would be within his body.

If a person born with that feature would want to honor God, and what is written in the bible, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality#Passages_from_the_New_Testament), he would look to abstain from said desire. Assuming for a moment that this individual also has desire for the opposite sex, but to a lesser degree, this person's battle to honor God would be to find biological ways to increase their level of desire for the opposite sex, by ways of personal development, diet, sport, and other external factors.

For the following segment of my explanation, I ask that you be open, rather very open, it will be a difficult challenge (kindly understand what I mean). I will ask you to swith viewpoints for a brief moment.

Assuming this for a brief moment, assume that homosexuality is a sin, something that displeases God. Let me walk you through this briefly as a mental exercise. If homosexuality is a sin, then it can be likened to, for a simple example, for all things other than self-harm: substance abuse. I want to liken it to this because it is something that both you and I, no matter our position, strongly disagree with. A specific example being alcoholism.

Science has shown that alcoholism is something that can be passed down genetically. For the person suffering from this condition, yet desires to please God, it will be their battle to work against their biological pre-disposition, by the power of will, but especially the power of prayer.

You can reset your position now, thanks for walking with me through it I know it is hard for you, as you mentioned earlier. The reason I wanted to walk you through it is to demonstrate that, though God creates all of us different, with different tendencies to different things, good or bad, it is also possible by the power of will and prayer to go against tendencies that would be considered a sin in the eyes of God.

Sincerely, I just want to help and be constructive. If I'm not, I fail for myself. Please let me know where I do.


While I do commend you for being rational for once (yes, I know that's passive aggressive...but also true), there's still a lot wrong with what you're saying here.  Not that the logic you've presented here is fallacious (it's actually reasonably sturdy), it's that you've ignored one glaring point that destroys your whole argument:  what god/religion says is harmful and what Science says is harmful are VERY different things.  

Basically the argument you've made here is that, in the eyes of religion, Homosexuality is a sin.  BEING homosexual isn't, since you're born that way (thankfully you at least see this truth), but ACTING on it is.  Engaging in homosexual acts or desires is considered sinful, and if you want to truly be one with the lord, you have to deny these cravings and seek a heterosexual relationship (made easier if the person in question is Bi instead of gay.)  

This is bad.  

See, science has proven time and time again that it's more abusive to yourself to push to be someone you aren't than it is to be yourself.  While 'spiritually' you may be damaging yourself by doing homosexual things, there's less than 0 proof (meaning there's proof to the contrary) that an act of homosexuality is in any way dangerous in and of itself.  (granted, taking a step outside can be harmful, but this is within reason.  Proper precautions have to be taken for every action, and there's no proof that homosexual acts are harmful in and of themselves.)  

Basically what this boils down to is preciely what I said: Denying your nature is harmful to your mental and physical wellbeing, the only thing you 'hurt' by doing homosexual acts is the preists and religious folk who condemn such acts.  I'm sure God would understand. 



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sapphi_snake said:

 

So... in other words it's wrong to be themselves? And how are homosexuals harming themsleves? On the contrary, they harm themselves by denying and repressing their homosexuality. Hence why classifying homosexuality as a sin is psychological abuse.



Men has a natural inclination for pleasure. Should men persue that pleasure without limitations? No.
They are harming themselves, like any other person, by living something they know it`s a sin.



Runa216 said:
padib said:

 


 Engaging in homosexual acts or desires is considered sinful, and if you want to truly be one with the lord, you have to deny these cravings and seek a heterosexual relationship (made easier if the person in question is Bi instead of gay.)  



Runa, not wanting to interfere here but this part i thought it was better to explain.
You don`t have to seek a heterosexual relationship. If someone, for example, decided to renounce his or her homosexuality and, until, he or she had feelings for the opposite sex - if ever - abstinence would be a choice aswell.

Hope you don`t get this as me trying to force anyone to anything.

 



tolu619 said:
I'll say this knowing fully well that most people won't understand. To the few that do/will, it's worth being said(besides, Runa's reply might be fun):
Jesus came to destroy religion and replace it with a relationship with God. Unfortunately, many things in the Bible have been twisted to spawn so many different religions. However, true Christianity is not religious.
Religion is based on laws:Dos and Don'ts. Christianity is based on a relationship founded on love(religion never presents a father-son relationship but a deity-servant one). Anyone interested in a more in-depth explanation of this can read Romans chapter 10. I won't answer any questions on this posted on this thread unless I'm convinced that it's a question from someone who actually wants to hear more, and not just scoff.
By the way, the guy that said that part of civilization implies people with different beliefs being able to live together makes a good point. I guess it's just our bad human nature that ruins everything, and will always find an excuse to back up evil(whether its religious beliefs or something totally different).

POST OF THE FUCKING MILLENNIUM !!!

You just single handedly owned the whole thread. Hats off to you



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padib said:

Regarding italics, I appreciate you acknowledging my effort. I trust you understand this has been a painful process for me.
Regarding bold italics, I truly appreciate your clarity on the matter. That though you disagree, you see that at the very least the position is logically robust. You have no idea what this means to me.

With this said, in light of regarding underlined italics, I kindly urge you revise my example of substance abuse. Having used said example as a bridge between both our points of view, I hoped to find an area that you considered harmful due to science, but which I considered harmful both due to science, and due to the biblical moral standard, as stated in Ephesians 5:18:  Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

Your participation in this effort of respect is a huge light to me. You have my gratefulness.

the main issue I'm having with this logic is that Alcoholism and homosexuality are in no ways similar, unless you're making the grand assumption that homosexuality is as harmful to your spirit as alcoholism is to your body



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Think about it this way padib.
What if the Bible actually wrote it the opposite way we now know it. What if the sin was being hetero?
I know it's hard for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes about this subject, but please try it for just a moment.

Also, have you ever masturbated?



padib said:
Runa216 said:
padib said:

Regarding italics, I appreciate you acknowledging my effort. I trust you understand this has been a painful process for me.
Regarding bold italics, I truly appreciate your clarity on the matter. That though you disagree, you see that at the very least the position is logically robust. You have no idea what this means to me.

With this said, in light of regarding underlined italics, I kindly urge you revise my example of substance abuse. Having used said example as a bridge between both our points of view, I hoped to find an area that you considered harmful due to science, but which I considered harmful both due to science, and due to the biblical moral standard, as stated in Ephesians 5:18:  Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

Your participation in this effort of respect is a huge light to me. You have my gratefulness.

the main issue I'm having with this logic is that Alcoholism and homosexuality are in no ways similar, unless you're making the grand assumption that homosexuality is as harmful to your spirit as alcoholism is to your body

You are absolutely correct on this. Scientifically speaking, homosexuality and alcoholism have nothing in common. The mental exercise I had you do was assuming an imaginary condition, that homosexuality was a sin. Think of it like working with imaginary numbers in mathematics. I know it's painful for you to see homosexuality as a sin, but for the purpose of my demonstration, it was the assumption I needed temporarily.

To describe homosexuality as sin (consider it an imaginary logical clause), I was able to liken it to alcoholism in sin only. Remember I bold italicised the sentence "for all reasons other than self-harm", within the assumption position of  homosexuality as sin.

I did that because alcoholism is something we both agree is wrong for scientific reasons, I also disagree for scientific reasons, but also for religious moral reasons. In a case where alcoholism, as a sin, can likewise be controlled, it is understandable that homosexuality, as a sin, can be controlled. 

To clarify, I am making the assumption that homosexuality is harmful to your spirit as alcoholism is harmful to your spirit. From there, since alcoholism is also harmful to your body, and it can be controlled, the logic can be unwound back to homosexuality. Granted, I don't want you to hold on to the assumption too long as it is very contrary to your framework, and I hold utmost respect to human freedom of thought.

Better analogy, do you polish the knob?



On the topic of homosexuality, Runa I've wanted to ask you: What, in your opinion, is the point of a gay marriage? I'm just asking, so please don't judge.



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BasilZero said:
theprof00 said:
Think about it this way padib.
What if the Bible actually wrote it the opposite way we now know it. What if the sin was being hetero?
I know it's hard for you to put yourself in someone else's shoes about this subject, but please try it for just a moment.

Also, have you ever masturbated?


You got the satanic book if you want something thats the opposite of the Bible.

Anyways if heterosexuality was a sin, world population wouldnt be where it is now in the billions.

 

But jokes aside, the bible puts homosexuality as a sin as it is seen as something that isnt natural. Heterosexuality is natural, life is made through contact between two different genders (which is considered to be the norm since pretty much when the world and all its creatures came into existence.).

I said "what if", not"give me your stupid excuses not to answer the question".