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Forums - Gaming - If You Want To Fight Piracy, Make Better Games - Gabe Newell, Also Ubisoft are evil "4 da hitz"

Not every one has there own store front where they make money from their percentage of every sale to make up for sales of their own games that in many cases have run there race and the extra bargain bin sales are all cream even 3rd party's do it why because it's a single store front that they can say to here's 5 games past their sales peak lets bundle them cheap with little cost compared to doing it at bricks and mortar yep it's a great dumping ground.



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Tecmo said:
I recently just got a new PC that can play any game out there right now, and I am severely disappointed that just about every game I want for PC has some type of DRM that performs rootkit like functions - I will not give them any of my money as long as they have that crap on their games unless..........

I have a question to pose - I thought about buying some of the games I want for PC and then downloading them without the DRM - so I would be downloading them off a pirate site but I would have already given the company my money so I wouldn't actually be stealing since I legally purchased the game.

Do you guys think this is ethical or does it just add to the problem?


While it's not as bad as just outright pirating the game, it still isn't good.  The problem is you're supporting the sites that support piracy.  By downloading a torrent you helping other people leech off it and by visiting the sites to find the torrent you're giving them bandwidth to further support their doings.

I completely agree that obtrusive DRM is wrong, but if you want to tell the companies to not use it, don't buy their game and let them know why.  If you email the development studio directly, they listen.  All you're doing along with every other pirate is showing there's a want for that game and they obviously need some sort of protection from piracy.



d0nni3 said:
Mr Puggsly said:
RolStoppable said:
Lostplanet22 said:
People are pirating like every game and the best selling games are really that great?

Valve demographics just exist out a lot of pirates who thx to his sweet talk will get brainwashed even more...

It is sickening how many times I read comments as 'Fuck company X for that reason they deserve that their game get pirated and with the money I saved I bought nice hatq/clothing or whatever for Team Fortress 2 >_>!

Yeah Valve exist out some great minds, they only don't make some of the greatest games but they know how to win gamers to their side and rip them off before other game devs can.

This is a joke, right? It has to be.

It's no coincidence that the companies who are the most outspoken ones against piracy and the used games market are the same who struggle to make games that people want to buy and keep. Meanwhile, you don't hear similar complaints from the companies who are capable of providing great products.

Bullshit, Ubisoft, EA, and Capcom complain but they all provide quality PC games.

You don't hear much from Activision and Blizzard but they're clearly concerned about piracy as well. Activision actually hunts down pirates. Diablo 3 will require DRM even for offline play.

Some developers simply can't rely on the PC a lone anymore and focus on consoles.

Ubisoft, EA and capcom would be better placed in the PC market if they didn't make dodgy ports of the console versions to the PC.

EA's biggest franchise is FIFA the pc version has only just been bought into line with the console versions in terms of quality if these companys expect people to buy there products then they need to ensure quality before release. Capcom are terrible at this as well having played DMC and RE's on the PC then Playstation you can see how much they really cared about the PC version

Capcom, EA, and Ubisoft put out a ton of software and some work better than others. Companies like Blizzard and Valve don't put out much and even their games can be buggy or resource hogs for sub par graphics.

Fifa won't sell nearly as well as the console ports even if they improved it for the PC. I've played a lot of Capcom games over the years on the PC and most worked great. Like I said though, some may work better than others. Also their older games don't work well on newer releases of Windows, but that's common.

If consumers are unhappy with the quality of a game, they don't have to buy it. Video games aren't forced on people. However, people shouldn't be getting them for free either. I recall Capcom saying they were happy with the PC sales of Street Fighter 4, but they were unhappy with how many people were getting it free.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

And as Gabe Newell a man who turns just about everything he is involved in to gold, from Microsoft, creating the story driven FPS, turning free mods into some of the most successful franchises in the genre and making the most successful digital distrabution nework in gaming. Is aparently not to be trusted

"Avalanche Studios boss Christofer Sundberg, the man behind the “Just Cause” game series, has offered his solution to the rampant PC piracy problem, try making better games, scrap the "stupid" DRM and give hackers a job."
http://www.qj.net/pc-gaming/news/avalanche-studio-offers-pc-piracy-solution-make-better-games.html

http://notch.tumblr.com/post/1121596044/how-piracy-works

What are your thoughts on DRM as a whole?

FW: I do not believe in DRM as a method of fighting piracy. Our way of fighting piracy is trying to give more value to people who actually bought the game. We are working on a few projects at the moment that will hopefully be appreciated by our gamers.

Paradox has typically released games with no DRM added. Is that due more to a lack of concern about piracy, or are you more focused on selling the product to potential customers?

FW: Our idea is that installing the game for someone who actually paid for the product shouldn’t be harder than installing the pirate version. DRM also costs a lot in technical support.

http://www.thedrmnews.com/games/a-chat-with-fredrik-wester/#more-1066



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
The statement itself makes sense at first but then you realize 1) that developers don't generally try to make bad games on purpose and 2) not every developer has the money to iterate on a game until it's perfect.

I love Valve but that's a pretty closed minded naive statement.


So big publishers can't afford to but small indie devs with no financial backing can, right...

Mojang can sell 4 million preorders with a 75%+ piracy rate, and terreria that sold almost half a million copies in a month both with a 0 marketing budget. Just because some devs/publishers can't doesn't mean that it's not true that if they did they could sell well on PC. The Witcher 2 is selling better than the first and has already crossed 1 million copies sold and they are a small developer with little marketing. Then there is Crysis with 3 million+ sales on PC and Crysis 2 with it's much larger marketing budget and 3 platforms has only managed 2 million so far, Starcraft 2 is selling faster than 1 etc people can do it when they try unfotunatly it seems like only indies seem to try most of the time these days.


Indie games and AAA or just even console games are entirely different businesses.  It's not exactly easy to compare Minecraft and Mass Effect.

Game studios eat through a shit-ton of money a month, more than it costs to develop entire indie teams, because there are large teams to pay for and general overhead.  Because of that, independant studios simply can't afford to iterate until the game is perfect and publishers don't want to keep throwing money away. 

Again, studios don't set out to make bad games.  Nobody kicked off a project like Haze off and said alright guys, we're going to make a real stinker here and waste a lot of time doing it.  They're generally trying to make the best game possible but budget and time can stop that.  As much as every studio would love it, there's no magical fun button a studio can press to make a game fun.

I respect Gabe Newell a lot but the statement-- if you want to fight piracy, make better games-- is just a beyond ignorant and naive statement.  Unless you really do want games only like Minecraft and other indie games (and believe me, I came up with 20 shitty indie games for every good one you bring up), that statement doesn't work at all.  Valve is an excellent developer and they have the luxury of being able to take their time, but that's not something most studios are able to have.  Most of them want that luxury, but not everyone can be Valve.

In other words AAA studios use a broken business model, doesn't make Gabe's point wrong



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

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zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:
RolStoppable said:
Lostplanet22 said:
People are pirating like every game and the best selling games are really that great?

Valve demographics just exist out a lot of pirates who thx to his sweet talk will get brainwashed even more...

It is sickening how many times I read comments as 'Fuck company X for that reason they deserve that their game get pirated and with the money I saved I bought nice hatq/clothing or whatever for Team Fortress 2 >_>!

Yeah Valve exist out some great minds, they only don't make some of the greatest games but they know how to win gamers to their side and rip them off before other game devs can.

This is a joke, right? It has to be.

It's no coincidence that the companies who are the most outspoken ones against piracy and the used games market are the same who struggle to make games that people want to buy and keep. Meanwhile, you don't hear similar complaints from the companies who are capable of providing great products.

Bullshit, Ubisoft, EA, and Capcom complain but they all provide quality PC games.

You don't hear much from Activision and Blizzard but they're clearly concerned about piracy as well. Activision actually hunts down pirates. Diablo 3 will require DRM even for offline play.

Some developers simply can't rely on the PC a lone anymore and focus on consoles.


So Ubisoft with draconian DRM, EA with the best selling PC series in history plus the only major publisher leading major game development on PC (proving that PC slaes are important to them despite piracy) and Capcom with sporadic low quality ports are allowed to complain but Gabe who suffers from piracy as much as anyone can't because he points out it's not as big an issue as other people say is a duche, right...

I personally don't find DRM that requires you to be online to be an issue. If consumers don't like it, they don't have to play the game period. it doesn't justify piracy. Mass piracy is something all publishers of PC games have to deal with, not just EA.

If Valve didn't have Steam and relied solely on the profit of their games, I assure you Valve would be more concerned with piracy.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

Mr Puggsly said:
d0nni3 said:

Ubisoft, EA and capcom would be better placed in the PC market if they didn't make dodgy ports of the console versions to the PC.

EA's biggest franchise is FIFA the pc version has only just been bought into line with the console versions in terms of quality if these companys expect people to buy there products then they need to ensure quality before release. Capcom are terrible at this as well having played DMC and RE's on the PC then Playstation you can see how much they really cared about the PC version

Capcom, EA, and Ubisoft put out a ton of software and some work better than others. Companies like Blizzard and Valve don't put out much and even their games can be buggy or resource hogs for sub par graphics.

Fifa won't sell nearly as well as the console ports even if they improved it for the PC. I've played a lot of Capcom games over the years on the PC and most worked great. Like I said though, some may work better than others. Also their older games don't work well on newer releases of Windows, but that's common.

If consumers are unhappy with the quality of a game, they don't have to buy it. Video games aren't forced on people. However, people shouldn't be getting them for free either. I recall Capcom saying they were happy with the PC sales of Street Fighter 4, but they were unhappy with how many people were getting it free.



Capcom put out little PC software and most of what they do put out is delayed or shodilly ported and all are designed for consoles first, Ubisoft put out a lot of shodally ported, console led, months late ports and games with draconian DRM.

 EA are changing to put more on attention to PC but still mostly console led design, they do however have some of their most successful games only on PC like the Sims so they are a bad example for your argument.

Graphics are not as important as gameplay, you can give your PC port of your console game enhanced graphics on PC but it still won't sell if you keep the console led gameplay and UI.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

zarx said:
twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
The statement itself makes sense at first but then you realize 1) that developers don't generally try to make bad games on purpose and 2) not every developer has the money to iterate on a game until it's perfect.

I love Valve but that's a pretty closed minded naive statement.


So big publishers can't afford to but small indie devs with no financial backing can, right...

Mojang can sell 4 million preorders with a 75%+ piracy rate, and terreria that sold almost half a million copies in a month both with a 0 marketing budget. Just because some devs/publishers can't doesn't mean that it's not true that if they did they could sell well on PC. The Witcher 2 is selling better than the first and has already crossed 1 million copies sold and they are a small developer with little marketing. Then there is Crysis with 3 million+ sales on PC and Crysis 2 with it's much larger marketing budget and 3 platforms has only managed 2 million so far, Starcraft 2 is selling faster than 1 etc people can do it when they try unfotunatly it seems like only indies seem to try most of the time these days.


Indie games and AAA or just even console games are entirely different businesses.  It's not exactly easy to compare Minecraft and Mass Effect.

Game studios eat through a shit-ton of money a month, more than it costs to develop entire indie teams, because there are large teams to pay for and general overhead.  Because of that, independant studios simply can't afford to iterate until the game is perfect and publishers don't want to keep throwing money away. 

Again, studios don't set out to make bad games.  Nobody kicked off a project like Haze off and said alright guys, we're going to make a real stinker here and waste a lot of time doing it.  They're generally trying to make the best game possible but budget and time can stop that.  As much as every studio would love it, there's no magical fun button a studio can press to make a game fun.

I respect Gabe Newell a lot but the statement-- if you want to fight piracy, make better games-- is just a beyond ignorant and naive statement.  Unless you really do want games only like Minecraft and other indie games (and believe me, I came up with 20 shitty indie games for every good one you bring up), that statement doesn't work at all.  Valve is an excellent developer and they have the luxury of being able to take their time, but that's not something most studios are able to have.  Most of them want that luxury, but not everyone can be Valve.

In other words AAA studios use a broken business model, doesn't make Gabe's point wrong


If there was a make fun button that every studio could push then they would be wrong, but that isn't the case.  Valve can afford to take their time because they have an alternate revenue source, Steam, that isn't going dry any time soon.  Not every studio can have that or else all those sources would dry up.

Gabe's point is so much wrong, it's more just ignorant.  He as done a great deal many great things, but that just isn't something every studio can do.  If it were, every game would be as amazing as Half-Life 2 and every studio would have their own version of Steam along with their own licesned engine.

That's like saying if a company isn't a Fortune 500 company then it's obviously doing it wrong.  That isn't the case, it just means they are as successful as the top companies in the world.  By your reasoning studios like Naughty Dog are using a broken model except they manage to make excellent games.  Part of that is the business model and part of that is they're a great developer.

The AAA business model isn't the best business model and it's incredibly risky but everyone trying to copy Valve would be a death move for everybody.



zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:
d0nni3 said:

Ubisoft, EA and capcom would be better placed in the PC market if they didn't make dodgy ports of the console versions to the PC.

EA's biggest franchise is FIFA the pc version has only just been bought into line with the console versions in terms of quality if these companys expect people to buy there products then they need to ensure quality before release. Capcom are terrible at this as well having played DMC and RE's on the PC then Playstation you can see how much they really cared about the PC version

Capcom, EA, and Ubisoft put out a ton of software and some work better than others. Companies like Blizzard and Valve don't put out much and even their games can be buggy or resource hogs for sub par graphics.

Fifa won't sell nearly as well as the console ports even if they improved it for the PC. I've played a lot of Capcom games over the years on the PC and most worked great. Like I said though, some may work better than others. Also their older games don't work well on newer releases of Windows, but that's common.

If consumers are unhappy with the quality of a game, they don't have to buy it. Video games aren't forced on people. However, people shouldn't be getting them for free either. I recall Capcom saying they were happy with the PC sales of Street Fighter 4, but they were unhappy with how many people were getting it free.



Capcom put out little PC software and most of what they do put out is delayed or shodilly ported and all are designed for consoles first, Ubisoft put out a lot of shodally ported, console led, months late ports and games with draconian DRM.

 EA are changing to put more on attention to PC but still mostly console led design, they do however have some of their most successful games only on PC like the Sims so they are a bad example for your argument.

Graphics are not as important as gameplay, you can give your PC port of your console game enhanced graphics on PC but it still won't sell if you keep the console led gameplay and UI.

I whole heartedly agree that graphics don't trump gameplay but I'm sure you've heard the expression you eat with your eyes first, right?

As much as we don't like to admit it, graphics matter a lot.  A game may be fun as Hell but if it doesn't look good it's going to have a hard time selling.  Yes, there are extreme examples like Minecraft (though you could just call that a unique art style), other games like Braid or Limbo would have gone completely unnoticed if they hadn't concentrated so hard on their style.  Other games like BattleField 3 would be left in the shooter waste land if it weren't stand out graphics wise.

You may be enlightened enough to know that graphics don't matter and you play all those indie darlines knowing it's the gameplay that is making them special, but that doesn't make the money and making games is only about making money.



twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
The statement itself makes sense at first but then you realize 1) that developers don't generally try to make bad games on purpose and 2) not every developer has the money to iterate on a game until it's perfect.

I love Valve but that's a pretty closed minded naive statement.


So big publishers can't afford to but small indie devs with no financial backing can, right...

Mojang can sell 4 million preorders with a 75%+ piracy rate, and terreria that sold almost half a million copies in a month both with a 0 marketing budget. Just because some devs/publishers can't doesn't mean that it's not true that if they did they could sell well on PC. The Witcher 2 is selling better than the first and has already crossed 1 million copies sold and they are a small developer with little marketing. Then there is Crysis with 3 million+ sales on PC and Crysis 2 with it's much larger marketing budget and 3 platforms has only managed 2 million so far, Starcraft 2 is selling faster than 1 etc people can do it when they try unfotunatly it seems like only indies seem to try most of the time these days.


Indie games and AAA or just even console games are entirely different businesses.  It's not exactly easy to compare Minecraft and Mass Effect.

Game studios eat through a shit-ton of money a month, more than it costs to develop entire indie teams, because there are large teams to pay for and general overhead.  Because of that, independant studios simply can't afford to iterate until the game is perfect and publishers don't want to keep throwing money away. 

Again, studios don't set out to make bad games.  Nobody kicked off a project like Haze off and said alright guys, we're going to make a real stinker here and waste a lot of time doing it.  They're generally trying to make the best game possible but budget and time can stop that.  As much as every studio would love it, there's no magical fun button a studio can press to make a game fun.

I respect Gabe Newell a lot but the statement-- if you want to fight piracy, make better games-- is just a beyond ignorant and naive statement.  Unless you really do want games only like Minecraft and other indie games (and believe me, I came up with 20 shitty indie games for every good one you bring up), that statement doesn't work at all.  Valve is an excellent developer and they have the luxury of being able to take their time, but that's not something most studios are able to have.  Most of them want that luxury, but not everyone can be Valve.

In other words AAA studios use a broken business model, doesn't make Gabe's point wrong


If there was a make fun button that every studio could push then they would be wrong, but that isn't the case.  Valve can afford to take their time because they have an alternate revenue source, Steam, that isn't going dry any time soon.  Not every studio can have that or else all those sources would dry up.

Gabe's point is so much wrong, it's more just ignorant.  He as done a great deal many great things, but that just isn't something every studio can do.  If it were, every game would be as amazing as Half-Life 2 and every studio would have their own version of Steam along with their own licesned engine.

That's like saying if a company isn't a Fortune 500 company then it's obviously doing it wrong.  That isn't the case, it just means they are as successful as the top companies in the world.  By your reasoning studios like Naughty Dog are using a broken model except they manage to make excellent games.  Part of that is the business model and part of that is they're a great developer.

The AAA business model isn't the best business model and it's incredibly risky but everyone trying to copy Valve would be a death move for everybody.


First Naughty Dog use the same business model as Valve, use an outside source of income to support game development until it's perfect.

But  anyway you don't need endless iteration to make good games, many successful PC games that are great don't have that luxury ether, paradox interactive, CDProjekt, GSC game world etc are developers that have managed to make great games that have sold well on PC with limited budgets and resorces. The question is why can't big developers and publishers with many times the budgets not manage to match the success of basically indies on PC, the answer is not piracy it's bad design for PC, just because it's not easy doesn't mean you can't do it.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!