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Forums - Gaming - If You Want To Fight Piracy, Make Better Games - Gabe Newell, Also Ubisoft are evil "4 da hitz"

scottie said:
Galaki said:
zarx said:

*damn* this site has some problems always wiping posts and such

Anyway, I am glad people are saying this, conveniance is key. People are more likely to buy your game when it is good and more conveniant that pirating it, always on DRM (and other DRM) makes the game less conveniant and turns customers away. 

Good luck trying to convince the pubs and devs.

Heroes6 is on my iffy list and then they went and put always online DRM  on it. I won't even bother with it even if they sell for $10.

I have stable 10Mbits connection but that doesn't mean they can do whatever the hell they want.


I'll probably buy it, then leave the disc collecting dust and pirate it to get around DRm.

 

That said, I enjoyed heroes 3(.5) more than I enjoyed 4 or 5, so I may not even get it unless I hear good things.

I would do the same if there's a draught of games to play and/or I have too much free time.

In which, neither is happening. Maybe it's for the best, less money spent, LOL.



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I think there is some legitimacy to this. When you make really good games, you will not have an issue selling the game. Even if there are lots of people pirating said game, who is to say any of these people ever actually intended on buying it?

I'm one who found the DRM in Starcraft 2 to be quite annoying due to the nature of the internet at my house and how it decided it liked to d/c all the time.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Baalzamon said:
I think there is some legitimacy to this. When you make really good games, you will not have an issue selling the game. Even if there are lots of people pirating said game, who is to say any of these people ever actually intended on buying it?

I'm one who found the DRM in Starcraft 2 to be quite annoying due to the nature of the internet at my house and how it decided it liked to d/c all the time.


I managed to finnish the campaign without a disconnect luckly, now I just play online so the DRM isn't really an issue. A game like Diablo 3 on the other hand I am not sure I like the idea as much as I would be more likely to play single player than SC2...



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zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Even on a joystick the RE series has an annoying interface. That's really all I have to say about that.

The RE4 port was an unusually half assed effort, but it was neither published or developed by Capcom. Just bad quality control. However, it was very playable and it looked fine even without the lighting/shading effects.

If people aren't happy with the ports that's fine, nobody is obligated to purchase them. Ultimately, they are functional ports that get the job done. I just hate to see people piss and moan then enjoy them through piracy.


that's the point people are not buying them... That is the entire point of the article, people aren't buying the games because they aren't good not because of piracy, as shown by the fact that some games do sell very well.

How do you know RE5 didn't sell well on the PC? Ofcourse I mean relative to typical PC software sales.

I can't imagine RE4 didn't sold well because its hard to find and not distributed on digital services.

As I pointed out in a different post, Capcom was happy with how SF4 sold. They just weren't happy with it being one of the most pirated PC games. It seems quality games see both good sales and massive piracy.

Gabe's argument suggests better games get pirated less. The reality is better games get pirated the most.



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Mr Puggsly said:
zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Even on a joystick the RE series has an annoying interface. That's really all I have to say about that.

The RE4 port was an unusually half assed effort, but it was neither published or developed by Capcom. Just bad quality control. However, it was very playable and it looked fine even without the lighting/shading effects.

If people aren't happy with the ports that's fine, nobody is obligated to purchase them. Ultimately, they are functional ports that get the job done. I just hate to see people piss and moan then enjoy them through piracy.


that's the point people are not buying them... That is the entire point of the article, people aren't buying the games because they aren't good not because of piracy, as shown by the fact that some games do sell very well.

How do you know RE5 didn't sell well on the PC? Ofcourse I mean relative to typical PC software sales.

I can't imagine RE4 didn't sold well because its hard to find and not distributed on digital services.

As I pointed out in a different post, Capcom was happy with how SF4 sold. They just weren't happy with it being one of the most pirated PC games. It seems quality games see both good sales and massive piracy.

Gabe's argument suggests better games get pirated less. The reality is better games get pirated the most.

He doesn't say it will curb piracy, nothing will do that exept going full cload/streaming bassed he said “It doesn’t take much in terms of providing a better service to make pirates a non-issue.” As in piracy doesn't matter if you make a good product people want as people will buy it. Even in a country most publishers wrote off as a haven of pirats where nothing could sell like russia which is now one of Steams biggest reigons. Sales are up but piracy isn't down but that doesn't really matter. 

As for Resident evil 5 sales it's hard to tell as CAPCOM haven't released sales numbers for the PC version, interesting note RE5 has sold 5.6 million copies (as of June this year) according to CAPCOM on PS360 but VGChartz has combined PS360 sales at 7.16 million. I do know that CAPCOM sold 600 thousand PC games in 2009 the year RE5, Bionic Commando and Street Fighter 4 released, they claim 4 titles so I guess their last PC game DMC4 is included. they also sold 900 thousand in 2010 with 3 titles (Dark Void, Dead Rising 2 and Lost Planet 2). So I think we can gather from that RE5 flopped on PC, unless their "shipped" numbers don't include digital, which is possible because they have a totally seperate consumer online games thing with like 40+ million sales but that only starts in 2010... So I don't know http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/data/pdf/explanation/2010/full/explanation_2010_full_01.pdf



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Yeah making better games won't stop people from pirating,who wants to pirate a crap game? I always heard this crap about "they (company X) deserve to be pirated cos their games are so expensive etc etc" ... people pirate because they want to get stuff for free. Of all people, pirates hinder the improvement of games because obviously the publisher is losing out on money they should be getting. That said, it's counter productive to have such harsh measures against piracy that it puts the law-abiding gamers off. Personally I love how pirates got a uncompleteable version of arkham asylum,serves them right for pirating.



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zarx said:
twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
The statement itself makes sense at first but then you realize 1) that developers don't generally try to make bad games on purpose and 2) not every developer has the money to iterate on a game until it's perfect.

I love Valve but that's a pretty closed minded naive statement.


So big publishers can't afford to but small indie devs with no financial backing can, right...

Mojang can sell 4 million preorders with a 75%+ piracy rate, and terreria that sold almost half a million copies in a month both with a 0 marketing budget. Just because some devs/publishers can't doesn't mean that it's not true that if they did they could sell well on PC. The Witcher 2 is selling better than the first and has already crossed 1 million copies sold and they are a small developer with little marketing. Then there is Crysis with 3 million+ sales on PC and Crysis 2 with it's much larger marketing budget and 3 platforms has only managed 2 million so far, Starcraft 2 is selling faster than 1 etc people can do it when they try unfotunatly it seems like only indies seem to try most of the time these days.


Indie games and AAA or just even console games are entirely different businesses.  It's not exactly easy to compare Minecraft and Mass Effect.

Game studios eat through a shit-ton of money a month, more than it costs to develop entire indie teams, because there are large teams to pay for and general overhead.  Because of that, independant studios simply can't afford to iterate until the game is perfect and publishers don't want to keep throwing money away. 

Again, studios don't set out to make bad games.  Nobody kicked off a project like Haze off and said alright guys, we're going to make a real stinker here and waste a lot of time doing it.  They're generally trying to make the best game possible but budget and time can stop that.  As much as every studio would love it, there's no magical fun button a studio can press to make a game fun.

I respect Gabe Newell a lot but the statement-- if you want to fight piracy, make better games-- is just a beyond ignorant and naive statement.  Unless you really do want games only like Minecraft and other indie games (and believe me, I came up with 20 shitty indie games for every good one you bring up), that statement doesn't work at all.  Valve is an excellent developer and they have the luxury of being able to take their time, but that's not something most studios are able to have.  Most of them want that luxury, but not everyone can be Valve.

In other words AAA studios use a broken business model, doesn't make Gabe's point wrong


If there was a make fun button that every studio could push then they would be wrong, but that isn't the case.  Valve can afford to take their time because they have an alternate revenue source, Steam, that isn't going dry any time soon.  Not every studio can have that or else all those sources would dry up.

Gabe's point is so much wrong, it's more just ignorant.  He as done a great deal many great things, but that just isn't something every studio can do.  If it were, every game would be as amazing as Half-Life 2 and every studio would have their own version of Steam along with their own licesned engine.

That's like saying if a company isn't a Fortune 500 company then it's obviously doing it wrong.  That isn't the case, it just means they are as successful as the top companies in the world.  By your reasoning studios like Naughty Dog are using a broken model except they manage to make excellent games.  Part of that is the business model and part of that is they're a great developer.

The AAA business model isn't the best business model and it's incredibly risky but everyone trying to copy Valve would be a death move for everybody.


First Naughty Dog use the same business model as Valve, use an outside source of income to support game development until it's perfect.

 


Absolutely wrong there.

Naughty Dog gets paid to work from their publisher, Sony.  They have a set budget that can only be increased by Sony so they have to work within that budget or ask Sony for more money.  If there's any money used not from Sony, it's likely only from their own reserve.  This is the model almost every studio out there uses because making a game costs A LOT of money.  The publishers eat the risk, but it's less money for the developer.  Because the publisher is the one footing the bill, you cannot iterate until it's perfect unless the publisher says so.

Valve on the other hand publishes their own games because they get their money from their past games, Steams, and licensing.  Since it's their money, they can take as long as they please.  They get all the money in this case but assume all the risk and they have to have the revenue.  Not many developers for major games can even come close to this (not even an amazing developer like Naughty Dog).



zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:
zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Even on a joystick the RE series has an annoying interface. That's really all I have to say about that.

The RE4 port was an unusually half assed effort, but it was neither published or developed by Capcom. Just bad quality control. However, it was very playable and it looked fine even without the lighting/shading effects.

If people aren't happy with the ports that's fine, nobody is obligated to purchase them. Ultimately, they are functional ports that get the job done. I just hate to see people piss and moan then enjoy them through piracy.


that's the point people are not buying them... That is the entire point of the article, people aren't buying the games because they aren't good not because of piracy, as shown by the fact that some games do sell very well.

How do you know RE5 didn't sell well on the PC? Ofcourse I mean relative to typical PC software sales.

I can't imagine RE4 didn't sold well because its hard to find and not distributed on digital services.

As I pointed out in a different post, Capcom was happy with how SF4 sold. They just weren't happy with it being one of the most pirated PC games. It seems quality games see both good sales and massive piracy.

Gabe's argument suggests better games get pirated less. The reality is better games get pirated the most.

He doesn't say it will curb piracy, nothing will do that exept going full cload/streaming bassed he said “It doesn’t take much in terms of providing a better service to make pirates a non-issue.” As in piracy doesn't matter if you make a good product people want as people will buy it. Even in a country most publishers wrote off as a haven of pirats where nothing could sell like russia which is now one of Steams biggest reigons. Sales are up but piracy isn't down but that doesn't really matter. 

As for Resident evil 5 sales it's hard to tell as CAPCOM haven't released sales numbers for the PC version, interesting note RE5 has sold 5.6 million copies (as of June this year) according to CAPCOM on PS360 but VGChartz has combined PS360 sales at 7.16 million. I do know that CAPCOM sold 600 thousand PC games in 2009 the year RE5, Bionic Commando and Street Fighter 4 released, they claim 4 titles so I guess their last PC game DMC4 is included. they also sold 900 thousand in 2010 with 3 titles (Dark Void, Dead Rising 2 and Lost Planet 2). So I think we can gather from that RE5 flopped on PC, unless their "shipped" numbers don't include digital, which is possible because they have a totally seperate consumer online games thing with like 40+ million sales but that only starts in 2010... So I don't know http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/data/pdf/explanation/2010/full/explanation_2010_full_01.pdf

Well piracy does matter to them because it does deter sales. Its not solely responsible for games flopping, but it definitely has an impact.

 

I know Steam says Russia is one of their biggest regions, but I'm curious to know what that actullay means. Does Russia actually account for a large portion of their profits? Saying Russia is one of their biggest clients could probably just mean they do better in Russia than most countires.

For example, Technically MS could say Japan is one of the biggest regions for Xbox 360. Simply because the 360 sells better in Japan than most other countries. However, we see the Xbox 360 numbers so we know Japan isn't very important. But we don't see Steam numbers so we don't actually know how important Russia is. Hence, I'm not going presume Russia is as worthwhile as Gabe is implying.



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Mr Puggsly said:
RolStoppable said:
Lostplanet22 said:
People are pirating like every game and the best selling games are really that great?

Valve demographics just exist out a lot of pirates who thx to his sweet talk will get brainwashed even more...

It is sickening how many times I read comments as 'Fuck company X for that reason they deserve that their game get pirated and with the money I saved I bought nice hatq/clothing or whatever for Team Fortress 2 >_>!

Yeah Valve exist out some great minds, they only don't make some of the greatest games but they know how to win gamers to their side and rip them off before other game devs can.

This is a joke, right? It has to be.

It's no coincidence that the companies who are the most outspoken ones against piracy and the used games market are the same who struggle to make games that people want to buy and keep. Meanwhile, you don't hear similar complaints from the companies who are capable of providing great products.

Bullshit, Ubisoft, EA, and Capcom complain but they all provide quality PC games.

You don't hear much from Activision and Blizzard but they're clearly concerned about piracy as well. Activision actually hunts down pirates. Diablo 3 will require DRM even for offline play.

Some developers simply can't rely on the PC a lone anymore and focus on consoles.



While I do agree with your post: Diablo 3 has no offline play mode. SP is just a solo Battlenet online game. Difference between it is that the game cant be played without beeing online all chars, items and stats are safed on servers every item is verified online. Diablo 3 is no Single Player game anymore. That it lets you play alone is as much offline as going on a raid alone in WOW.

twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
zarx said:
twesterm said:
The statement itself makes sense at first but then you realize 1) that developers don't generally try to make bad games on purpose and 2) not every developer has the money to iterate on a game until it's perfect.

I love Valve but that's a pretty closed minded naive statement.


So big publishers can't afford to but small indie devs with no financial backing can, right...

Mojang can sell 4 million preorders with a 75%+ piracy rate, and terreria that sold almost half a million copies in a month both with a 0 marketing budget. Just because some devs/publishers can't doesn't mean that it's not true that if they did they could sell well on PC. The Witcher 2 is selling better than the first and has already crossed 1 million copies sold and they are a small developer with little marketing. Then there is Crysis with 3 million+ sales on PC and Crysis 2 with it's much larger marketing budget and 3 platforms has only managed 2 million so far, Starcraft 2 is selling faster than 1 etc people can do it when they try unfotunatly it seems like only indies seem to try most of the time these days.


Indie games and AAA or just even console games are entirely different businesses.  It's not exactly easy to compare Minecraft and Mass Effect.

Game studios eat through a shit-ton of money a month, more than it costs to develop entire indie teams, because there are large teams to pay for and general overhead.  Because of that, independant studios simply can't afford to iterate until the game is perfect and publishers don't want to keep throwing money away. 

Again, studios don't set out to make bad games.  Nobody kicked off a project like Haze off and said alright guys, we're going to make a real stinker here and waste a lot of time doing it.  They're generally trying to make the best game possible but budget and time can stop that.  As much as every studio would love it, there's no magical fun button a studio can press to make a game fun.

I respect Gabe Newell a lot but the statement-- if you want to fight piracy, make better games-- is just a beyond ignorant and naive statement.  Unless you really do want games only like Minecraft and other indie games (and believe me, I came up with 20 shitty indie games for every good one you bring up), that statement doesn't work at all.  Valve is an excellent developer and they have the luxury of being able to take their time, but that's not something most studios are able to have.  Most of them want that luxury, but not everyone can be Valve.

In other words AAA studios use a broken business model, doesn't make Gabe's point wrong


If there was a make fun button that every studio could push then they would be wrong, but that isn't the case.  Valve can afford to take their time because they have an alternate revenue source, Steam, that isn't going dry any time soon.  Not every studio can have that or else all those sources would dry up.

Gabe's point is so much wrong, it's more just ignorant.  He as done a great deal many great things, but that just isn't something every studio can do.  If it were, every game would be as amazing as Half-Life 2 and every studio would have their own version of Steam along with their own licesned engine.

That's like saying if a company isn't a Fortune 500 company then it's obviously doing it wrong.  That isn't the case, it just means they are as successful as the top companies in the world.  By your reasoning studios like Naughty Dog are using a broken model except they manage to make excellent games.  Part of that is the business model and part of that is they're a great developer.

The AAA business model isn't the best business model and it's incredibly risky but everyone trying to copy Valve would be a death move for everybody.


First Naughty Dog use the same business model as Valve, use an outside source of income to support game development until it's perfect.

 


Absolutely wrong there.

Naughty Dog gets paid to work from their publisher, Sony.  They have a set budget that can only be increased by Sony so they have to work within that budget or ask Sony for more money.  If there's any money used not from Sony, it's likely only from their own reserve.  This is the model almost every studio out there uses because making a game costs A LOT of money.  The publishers eat the risk, but it's less money for the developer.  Because the publisher is the one footing the bill, you cannot iterate until it's perfect unless the publisher says so.

Valve on the other hand publishes their own games because they get their money from their past games, Steams, and licensing.  Since it's their money, they can take as long as they please.  They get all the money in this case but assume all the risk and they have to have the revenue.  Not many developers for major games can even come close to this (not even an amazing developer like Naughty Dog).

From everything I have read they are a show peice developer they get as much money as they need to perfect their games, just like Team Ico the only difference is that they are very good at keeping a schedual. They work on one project until it's perfect and do it faster than everyone else itereation is their moto and unlike games like Battlefield 3 that are not gold until a week before release they go gold a month before release.



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Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!