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Forums - Gaming - If You Want To Fight Piracy, Make Better Games - Gabe Newell, Also Ubisoft are evil "4 da hitz"

Mr Puggsly said:

Well piracy does matter to them because it does deter sales. Its not solely responsible for games flopping, but it definitely has an impact.

 

I know Steam says Russia is one of their biggest regions, but I'm curious to know what that actullay means. Does Russia actually account for a large portion of their profits? Saying Russia is one of their biggest clients could probably just mean they do better in Russia than most countires.

For example, Technically MS could say Japan is one of the biggest regions for Xbox 360. Simply because the 360 sells better in Japan than most other countries. However, we see the Xbox 360 numbers so we know Japan isn't very important. But we don't see Steam numbers so we don't actually know how important Russia is. Hence, I'm not going presume Russia is as worthwhile as Gabe is implying.


Why would he need to lie? I see no advantage in lieing. 



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zarx said:
twesterm said:
zarx said:


First Naughty Dog use the same business model as Valve, use an outside source of income to support game development until it's perfect.

 


Absolutely wrong there.

Naughty Dog gets paid to work from their publisher, Sony.  They have a set budget that can only be increased by Sony so they have to work within that budget or ask Sony for more money.  If there's any money used not from Sony, it's likely only from their own reserve.  This is the model almost every studio out there uses because making a game costs A LOT of money.  The publishers eat the risk, but it's less money for the developer.  Because the publisher is the one footing the bill, you cannot iterate until it's perfect unless the publisher says so.

Valve on the other hand publishes their own games because they get their money from their past games, Steams, and licensing.  Since it's their money, they can take as long as they please.  They get all the money in this case but assume all the risk and they have to have the revenue.  Not many developers for major games can even come close to this (not even an amazing developer like Naughty Dog).

From everything I have read they are a show peice developer they get as much money as they need to perfect their games, just like Team Ico the only difference is that they are very good at keeping a schedual. They work on one project until it's perfect and do it faster than everyone else itereation is their moto and unlike games like Battlefield 3 that are not gold until a week before release they go gold a month before release.


You're confusing a lot of things here.

First off, they are not like Team Ico.  The money for Team Ico games comes from Sony, the publisher.  They have room to wait until it's perfect because Sony lets them.  With Valve, they supply their own money so they can take as long as they want, it's their choice, not a publishers.  It has nothing to do with keeping a schedule.

As for speed, I don't know what you're talking.  The Last Guardian has been in developer for a *long* time, at least five years.  So yeah...

When you say iteration, I don't think you really know what the term means in context to schedules.  You're talking about milestones, and major milestones at that.  Alpha, beta, and gold are milestones, not interations.  When people talk iterative development, they're generally talking about quick 2 week turnaround things.  They team finds a set of features, works on it, and makes iterations at various points until it's where they want it. 

For going gold, that is the point it is released to the manufacter.  That's what the term means so unless it's a download only game, going gold only a week before release is pretty impossible.  What you're talking about is working on the game up until release, which even Team Ico will probably be doing (there's always more bugs).

Finally, none of that has much to do with the real issue-- not all developers has the luxury of infinite budgets that Valve has.  Any studio that isn't using its own money, and that's nearly all of them, must stick to a schedule.  Yes, some are better than the others but that has zero to do with the business plan. 



twesterm said:
You're confusing a lot of things here.

First off, they are not like Team Ico.  The money for Team Ico games comes from Sony, the publisher.  They have room to wait until it's perfect because Sony lets them.  With Valve, they supply their own money so they can take as long as they want, it's their choice, not a publishers.  It has nothing to do with keeping a schedule.

That was the point Sony gives them all the money they need

As for speed, I don't know what you're talking.  The Last Guardian has been in developer for a *long* time, at least five years.  So yeah...

I was talking about Naughty Dog there, Naughty Dog don't need the extra time that is how they are different from Valve.

When you say iteration, I don't think you really know what the term means in context to schedules.  You're talking about milestones, and major milestones at that.  Alpha, beta, and gold are milestones, not interations.  When people talk iterative development, they're generally talking about quick 2 week turnaround things.  They team finds a set of features, works on it, and makes iterations at various points until it's where they want it. 

I know what iteration means, http://www.criticalgamer.co.uk/2010/04/23/the-design-philosophy-at-naughty-dog-an-interview-with-uncharted-2s-co-lead-designer-richard-lemarchand/

For going gold, that is the point it is released to the manufacter.  That's what the term means so unless it's a download only game, going gold only a week before release is pretty impossible.  What you're talking about is working on the game up until release, which even Team Ico will probably be doing (there's always more bugs).

Maybe I remeber that wrong but I seem to remember Dice saying it hadn't gone gold 3 weeks out from launch and that EA were going to be pulling out all the stops to get stock in time. But maybe that was fevor dream as i can't seem to find the story now, maybe it was one of those forum rumours that go arround...

Finally, none of that has much to do with the real issue-- not all developers has the luxury of infinite budgets that Valve has.  Any studio that isn't using its own money, and that's nearly all of them, must stick to a schedule.  Yes, some are better than the others but that has zero to do with the business plan. 

But you don't need to have an infinite budget to make a "good" game that offers a legit consumer more than a pirate. In fact some publishers like Ubisoft spend extra money to inconveniance consumers. If small indie teams can make games consumers are willing to buy on a shoe string why can't multinational developers?

Anyway this is getting really off topic now



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well piracy does matter to them because it does deter sales. Its not solely responsible for games flopping, but it definitely has an impact.

 

I know Steam says Russia is one of their biggest regions, but I'm curious to know what that actullay means. Does Russia actually account for a large portion of their profits? Saying Russia is one of their biggest clients could probably just mean they do better in Russia than most countires.

For example, Technically MS could say Japan is one of the biggest regions for Xbox 360. Simply because the 360 sells better in Japan than most other countries. However, we see the Xbox 360 numbers so we know Japan isn't very important. But we don't see Steam numbers so we don't actually know how important Russia is. Hence, I'm not going presume Russia is as worthwhile as Gabe is implying.


Why would he need to lie? I see no advantage in lieing. 

I didn't say he was lying. Russia may actually be one of their bigger clients. Just like Japan is one of the 360's bigger clients.



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Mr Puggsly said:
zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well piracy does matter to them because it does deter sales. Its not solely responsible for games flopping, but it definitely has an impact.

 

I know Steam says Russia is one of their biggest regions, but I'm curious to know what that actullay means. Does Russia actually account for a large portion of their profits? Saying Russia is one of their biggest clients could probably just mean they do better in Russia than most countires.

For example, Technically MS could say Japan is one of the biggest regions for Xbox 360. Simply because the 360 sells better in Japan than most other countries. However, we see the Xbox 360 numbers so we know Japan isn't very important. But we don't see Steam numbers so we don't actually know how important Russia is. Hence, I'm not going presume Russia is as worthwhile as Gabe is implying.


Why would he need to lie? I see no advantage in lieing. 

I didn't say he was lying. Russia may actually be one of their bigger clients. Just like Japan is one of the 360's bigger clients.



Why do you say clients by the way? Seems odd



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

Around the Network
zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:
zarx said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Well piracy does matter to them because it does deter sales. Its not solely responsible for games flopping, but it definitely has an impact.

 

I know Steam says Russia is one of their biggest regions, but I'm curious to know what that actullay means. Does Russia actually account for a large portion of their profits? Saying Russia is one of their biggest clients could probably just mean they do better in Russia than most countires.

For example, Technically MS could say Japan is one of the biggest regions for Xbox 360. Simply because the 360 sells better in Japan than most other countries. However, we see the Xbox 360 numbers so we know Japan isn't very important. But we don't see Steam numbers so we don't actually know how important Russia is. Hence, I'm not going presume Russia is as worthwhile as Gabe is implying.


Why would he need to lie? I see no advantage in lieing. 

I didn't say he was lying. Russia may actually be one of their bigger clients. Just like Japan is one of the 360's bigger clients.



Why do you say clients by the way? Seems odd

Because it sounds cooler than region.



Recently Completed: 
River City: Rival Showdown
for 3DS (3/5) - River City: Tokyo Rumble for 3DS (4/5) - Zelda: BotW for Wii U (5/5) - Zelda: BotW for Switch (5/5) - Zelda: Link's Awakening for Switch (4/5) - Rage 2 for X1X (4/5) - Rage for 360 (3/5) - Streets of Rage 4 for X1/PC (4/5) - Gears 5 for X1X (5/5) - Mortal Kombat 11 for X1X (5/5) - Doom 64 for N64 (emulator) (3/5) - Crackdown 3 for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)