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Forums - Politics - Wall Street Protests

richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
The biggest problem I have with the protests is that the official 14-point plan is absolutely insane, and looks to of been written by a child with no understanding of economics.

That, and everything I've seen from the movement reeks of "gimme, gimme, gimme. Its YOUR fault and I am blameless!"

You want to reform student loans so that you can let them go bankrupt? Take that up with Barak Obama and the legislature, not Wall Street.

There is no official 14 point plan.  Some individuals can go off and claim now there is a 14 point plan, as they have, but it doesn't mean there is one.  On this note, I am seeing both that their "14 point plan is insane" and also "they don't know what they want".  Both these charges are being thrown about and they both can't be true.

What you have is people upset at the current condition for a lot of reasons, have their own opinions and thoughts, and want this or that done.  Doesn't mean the group as a whole has it, but just a bunch of individuals.  So far, unlike the Tea Party (post Ron Paul Revolution), the group hasn't been infiltrated by certain my certain rich individuals and other political powers that be, to push things a certain way, so the message seems muddled.  What I will say is that, if things continue the way it is, that isn't going to happen.

Oh, it's gonna happen. The Democratic Party has wanted a Tea Party of its own for a while now, and the largest single reason people give for being at Zucotti Park is to influence the Democratic Party by being a left wing answer to the Tea Party. Co-option is basically inevitable.

In fact, notice in the same poll that only 56% of respondents voted at all in 2008, and 74% of them voted for Obama. So 41% voted for Obama before, but now 48% of them plan to vote for him in 2012. With Obama sending them shoutouts, and George Soros sending them money, co-option is already happening.



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Kasz216 said:

I'm not talkiing about people who are currently in a system like that.

I'm talking about people who are in the US right now, who either want a system like that or want to move in that direction.

IE the Occupy Wallstreet protesters who's demands would make us all MUCH poorer, but at least that poorness would be more evenly divided.

i really don't understand what you are trying say?

are you pro occupy wallstreet or not?



thx1139 said:
Great political cartoon all about OWS. http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20154363c25b0970c-320wi


I prefer this one:



HappySqurriel said:
thx1139 said:
Great political cartoon all about OWS. http://dailydish.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20154363c25b0970c-320wi


I prefer this one:

 

I kinda dug this one myself:



Kasz216 said:
 

1 - See, I see a whole lot of nothing happening in the future, because we have the same economy we had when everything was great... it's just, everything was great... and economics wise we're still a hell of a lot better then most countries, including Europeon ones.  Greece is going to get by with out a reveloution.   The US Should be just fine.

2 - Fair enough, i'd argue though that the occupy wallstreet movement could learn a lot from the tea-party policy wise if "corruptability by lobbyists" is the main worry.

3- We can't fight two different wars for two different reasons?  We did go to War in Afghanistan to get Bin Laden and take out the Taliban who was supporting him.  Bush sucked at it, but Afghanistan has really been nothing but an albatross and always will be.  Afghanistan I believe don't have any oil reserves in large numbers,  I've seen people argue oil pipeline, but the Caspian Sea makes way more sense then an oil pipeline through Afganistan.

4- Your equating armed robbery where someone takes something from someone else, to someone accepting a gift from someone else they aren't supposed to? 

5 - If that's the case I don't think you'd get rid of corruption.  The average person can't recognize special interest stuff in bills, and politicians would just claim their opponents bills are nothing but that.  People won't want a flat tax, even in corporations, hence how these corruption based subsiies happen in the first place.   Gotta support green energy/health industry/hardworker (factory) farmers, etc.

1 - Not quite what I meant. Call it premonition, 6th sense, or just me being stupid and being crazy. I do understand your point, but it sounds like you believe that people will remain complacent. Threaten a man's survival, they're not going to be complacent. Which is why the gov't has had failsafes like unemployment and welfare in place. The key difference between the poor being placated with welfare and the once-middle class, is that people who have a resumé with 10 to 20 years experience, a college degree, etc are not going to openly accept the fact that they require welfare to survive.  What are the options? Continue to extend unemployment benefits beyond the current 99 weeks? (there's a lot of this number showing up lately, no? ;) )

4 - Not particularly, but given the amount of fallout from such actions, don't you think a 40 month term (which will likely be reduced for good behavior) is a bit on the light side?

5. In a case of a barebones gov't there wouldn't be "opponent bills". As for the proposed bills, it'd have to be written in layman terms. I've always found legalese arcane and outdated myself, the laws would have to talk in a manner everyone would get, with a complete description of their ramifications. As for flat tax, it would make filing a lot easier. there's no question about write-offs, etc. Tax wouldn't be such a mystery. No one could complain about "so and so paid less taxes than me" etc. In other words, it could probably quell most of the complaints people have in this country.



The Carnival of Shadows - Folk Punk from Asbury Park, New Jersey

http://www.thecarnivalofshadows.com 


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HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:
MDMAniac said:
Lostplanet22 said:

More than 16% or 1 on every 6 citizens live in poverty and the number is still growing and is expected to be close to 20% in 2014-2015.


So what? It's their own fault only. Why one needs to pay for their failures in life? If they want it, they still can emigrate to some fucking commie countries where they can meet their own kin and live the life they dreamed about so much there until the scum dies off. Or at least as long as they're not trying to turn other countries in their ghetto, too.

Nice to know you agree with this person:

Its nice to know you'd rather argue with logical fallacies than addressing the substance of someone's argument ...

I don't argue with logical fallacies.  You can't argue with a logical falacy, because the falacy has a mind of its own.  In regards to the points said above, what is seen is as follows:

* The 1 in 6 in poverty are in poverty because it is their own fault.

* Why should anyone bother to help these people, because it is their fault? 

* These losers have answers, it is to go to a communist country, because communist are their own kin.  This is a dream of theirs, that they will live until they, scum, die off.

* Doing this will prevent turning another place into a ghetto.

 

Exactly what "substance" am I supposed to discuss here?  The video link I posted at least attempts to make a more coherant argument against equality, and argues, at least somewhat reasonably, why equality is a farce and people who are loser should be left to die and why.  Did you ever bother to click on that video?  If you did, you woult see it goes into a philosophical justification for sayingw hat is said.

 



badgenome said:
richardhutnik said:
mrstickball said:
The biggest problem I have with the protests is that the official 14-point plan is absolutely insane, and looks to of been written by a child with no understanding of economics.

That, and everything I've seen from the movement reeks of "gimme, gimme, gimme. Its YOUR fault and I am blameless!"

You want to reform student loans so that you can let them go bankrupt? Take that up with Barak Obama and the legislature, not Wall Street.

There is no official 14 point plan.  Some individuals can go off and claim now there is a 14 point plan, as they have, but it doesn't mean there is one.  On this note, I am seeing both that their "14 point plan is insane" and also "they don't know what they want".  Both these charges are being thrown about and they both can't be true.

What you have is people upset at the current condition for a lot of reasons, have their own opinions and thoughts, and want this or that done.  Doesn't mean the group as a whole has it, but just a bunch of individuals.  So far, unlike the Tea Party (post Ron Paul Revolution), the group hasn't been infiltrated by certain my certain rich individuals and other political powers that be, to push things a certain way, so the message seems muddled.  What I will say is that, if things continue the way it is, that isn't going to happen.

Oh, it's gonna happen. The Democratic Party has wanted a Tea Party of its own for a while now, and the largest single reason people give for being at Zucotti Park is to influence the Democratic Party by being a left wing answer to the Tea Party. Co-option is basically inevitable.

In fact, notice in the same poll that only 56% of respondents voted at all in 2008, and 74% of them voted for Obama. So 41% voted for Obama before, but now 48% of them plan to vote for him in 2012. With Obama sending them shoutouts, and George Soros sending them money, co-option is already happening.

It hasn't happened yet though.  There is a case for it happening, but it hasn't happened yet.  It is more likely to happen if other voices are not involved.  The entire general assembly approach is prone to take over, if not enough voices are there.  I see now, where I am, someone from MoveOn.org shows up and wanted the group to support them showing up and running an event.  The concensus was they could show up and join the protest, but not have signs and say it was a MoveOn.org event.   

What I do know here is to stereotype things and end up saying it is X, Y or Z isn't going to have things.  And yes, you see around the same percentage as people who are Democrats longing for Occupy to be the Democratic version of the Tea Party, BUT, that leaves still 2/3s who didn't say that, who wanted other things.  And it is these 2/3 that can end up NOT making cooping be available.



richardhutnik said:

And yes, you see around the same percentage as people who are Democrats longing for Occupy to be the Democratic version of the Tea Party, BUT, that leaves still 2/3s who didn't say that, who wanted other things.  And it is these 2/3 that can end up NOT making cooping be available.

Well, two-thirds of them primarily wanted something else. It doesn't mean that two-thirds don't want that as well or are against co-option. The 9% who want to "mobilize progressives" are essentially saying the same thing as the 35% who explicitly wanted to influence the Democrats. You can probably put others in that camp, too, such as those who want single-payer health care. Only the 11% who want to disrupt the two party system, and maybe the 4% whose chief goal is to get rid of capitalism and democracy altogether, would seem to be dead set against co-option.



Nice video. Thank You So Much.

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Regardless of whether you agree with the OWS, it did bring the talking point among politicians back to the important but mostly disregarded issue... jobs.