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Forums - Politics - Poll: Israel or Palestine?

 

Who do you support in the conflict and why?

Israel 124 34.35%
 
Palestine 235 65.10%
 
Total:359
Kynes said:


Thank God outside of Spain some people have a neutral vision of Al-Andalus. Here in Spain, the politically correct vision is to consider it some type of Utopia, where all three religions lived in peace and harmony. That's why we don't have any synagogue or church of the muslim taifas.

I'd say that's the politically correct version of history here, and in most other Western countries, too. It's quite a commentary on how desperate people are to believe that Islam is no different than the two other Abrahamic religions, or that if it is, it's because it's better and more tolerant and therefore everyone else is to blame for the ongoing strife.



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sapphi_snake said:

Al-Andalus was an Utopia compared to the rest of Medieval Europe (it was better in pretty much every way). You gotta give credit where credit is due.

True, and the Jim Crow era was a "utopia" compared to the days of slavery (it was better in pretty much every way), but that doesn't mean there was anything laudable about it. But I guess you gotta give credit where credit is due.



Nobody should be allowed to invade a country without a war.



non-gravity said:
From what I've heard the Palestinians are richer than all of their Arab neighbours due to the money the international community is giving them because their so sad and sad people deserve money by right.

Then again Israel seem to want to annexate the West Bank one settlement at a time, then again it would just be a dust bowl without them.

Both sides seem to prosper with the conflict.


Nah, Palestinian yearly aid only comes out to about 250 bucks a person.



All I know is that Jesus, Mohammed, and Abraham went to the same high school so everyone thinks that the land is theirs. It's an issue that unfortunately never will be resolved.



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Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Read what i've been writing. If you have a bully who's just out there to bully you, and no teacher or anyone in authority will come to your aid, you have no recourse but violence against the bully. If you believe your foe cannot be bought, reasoned, or negotiated with, then you will choose to fight even if it means getting your ass kicked over and over again.

Now this may be due to problems of communication, but that's how it will be

I've read what you've been writing... it generally reminds me of the cliche Einstein quote about the definition of insanity.

Israel did let up before.  In 2005. 

What happened was that the Paletsinians elected Hamas and redoubled rocket attacks.

Why do you believe that breathing room would lead to a move away from extremism, when the last time it happened it lead to the extremist party gaining power in the first place?

Nonstate actors. Specifically Hamas campaigning for support within the nonstate group by running violence against Israel.

Also the fact that, aside from the whole "Death to Israel" thing, Hamas seems like the more honest of the two Palestinian parties.



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Mr Khan said:
Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:
 

Read what i've been writing. If you have a bully who's just out there to bully you, and no teacher or anyone in authority will come to your aid, you have no recourse but violence against the bully. If you believe your foe cannot be bought, reasoned, or negotiated with, then you will choose to fight even if it means getting your ass kicked over and over again.

Now this may be due to problems of communication, but that's how it will be

I've read what you've been writing... it generally reminds me of the cliche Einstein quote about the definition of insanity.

Israel did let up before.  In 2005. 

What happened was that the Paletsinians elected Hamas and redoubled rocket attacks.

Why do you believe that breathing room would lead to a move away from extremism, when the last time it happened it lead to the extremist party gaining power in the first place?

Nonstate actors. Specifically Hamas campaigning for support within the nonstate group by running violence against Israel.

Also the fact that, aside from the whole "Death to Israel" thing, Hamas seems like the more honest of the two Palestinian parties.


I still don't see what about any of that has changed.

If anything, Hamas looks even more like the more honest of the two currently... while the PA looks like bumbling traitors who can't even successfully negotiate a secret capitulation.

Just for an example, if Israel today were to say "We will accept the Palestinian proposal in the Palestine papers" do you actually think a deal would be made?

Even if they wanted too, the PA couldn't agree to their own proposal in public.

I hate to say it, but I don't see any meanigful negotiation happening until another failed intifada.



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Nonstate actors. Specifically Hamas campaigning for support within the nonstate group by running violence against Israel.

Also the fact that, aside from the whole "Death to Israel" thing, Hamas seems like the more honest of the two Palestinian parties.


I still don't see what about any of that has changed.

If anything, Hamas looks even more like the more honest of the two currently... while the PA looks like bumbling traitors who can't even successfully negotiate a secret capitulation.

Just for an example, if Israel today were to say "We will accept the Palestinian proposal in the Palestine papers" do you actually think a deal would be made?

Even if they wanted too, the PA couldn't agree to their own proposal in public.

I hate to say it, but I don't see any meanigful negotiation happening until another failed intifada.

If Israel could prove that they could be trusted for their part in the Palestinian Papers, i believe they could own up to it.

That is the other issue in that Hamas has toyed with the expectations of the Palestinian people, and thus forced the PA to up the ante beyond what they as a negotiation partner could reasonably expect, and will bring harsh reality down upon the Palestinian people, but it is a reality they would grudgingly accept so long as they believed that Israel would stand by their word, and that certain minimum thresholds are met (but minimum thresholds lower than the conditions that Palestinian leaders have been publicly endorsing)



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badgenome said:
sapphi_snake said:

Al-Andalus was an Utopia compared to the rest of Medieval Europe (it was better in pretty much every way). You gotta give credit where credit is due.

True, and the Jim Crow era was a "utopia" compared to the days of slavery (it was better in pretty much every way), but that doesn't mean there was anything laudable about it. But I guess you gotta give credit where credit is due.

Bad analogy, as my example was comparing contemporary countries, while you presented the same country in different historical periods. Criticising Al-Andalus is simply ridiculous, since the fact is that it was by far better than any other country in Europe at the time (it took the rest of Europe a long time to reach the same level). And it most likely would've been ahead constantly if it had a better army, wasn't torn by internal conflicts, and then destroyed by the Spanish. If you're gonna criticise Islam regarding Al-Andalus, then you should bash Christianity regarding the rest of Europe (which was in a miserable state at the time).



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sapphi_snake said:
badgenome said:
sapphi_snake said:

Al-Andalus was an Utopia compared to the rest of Medieval Europe (it was better in pretty much every way). You gotta give credit where credit is due.

True, and the Jim Crow era was a "utopia" compared to the days of slavery (it was better in pretty much every way), but that doesn't mean there was anything laudable about it. But I guess you gotta give credit where credit is due.

Bad analogy, as my example was comparing contemporary countries, while you presented the same country in different historical periods. Criticising Al-Andalus is simply ridiculous, since the fact is that it was by far better than any other country in Europe at the time (it took the rest of Europe a long time to reach the same level). And it most likely would've been ahead constantly if it had a better army, wasn't torn by internal conflicts, and then destroyed by the Spanish. If you're gonna criticise Islam regarding Al-Andalus, then you should bash Christianity regarding the rest of Europe (which was in a miserable state at the time).

Uh... no. I did implicitly criticize Christianity by acknowledging that it managed to be even less tolerant at the time (though there were exceptions such as the Byzantine Empire which - much like Andalusia - vacillated between long periods of marked tolerance and fierce bouts of persecution). However, the Christians have made incredible progress in the intervening centuries. The Muslims have meanwhile been steadily eradicating pretty much every ancient Christian and Jewish community in their midst, so I'm not exactly inclined to heap praise on them because their forefathers were somewhat more tolerant than the wildly intolerant Christians about a millennium ago.