Forums - General Discussion - Prison population. Atheists: 1%, Christians: 75%

my grip about this study is it seems to confuse the term atheist with non-religious.  just because you haven't aligned yourself with one of the other relgions of the world does not make you an atheist.

an atheist believes that there is no god.

a non-religious (in the way they are using it here) means you aren't associated with any church/whatever.

 

as far as i'm concerned, atheisism is a religion.  if you haven't given serious thought to your choice to not believe in god you are more agnostic then athiest imo.



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Mordred11 said:
@ the people saying that I don't back up my statement.Do YOU have any evidence to prove the contrary?As long as you don't,your perspective is just as correct/flawed as mine.I'm only speculating,if there was an answer to everything,forums wouldn't exist,questions wouldn't be asked.And that's why were here,to talk about it,and share our opinions,so take it easy.

People who commit crimes,are mostly the ones who are desperate and do it to survive.Are you telling me that the majority of these people are true christians and have hope in god that he'll make everything right?That's one very hard thing to believe.


the burden of proof lies on the person making the positive claim. you have the burden of proof on this one... no one else stated their oppinion on that subject. that's why a few people called you out for it.

and for this reason your statement that unless we prove you are wrong, the opposite view is just as likely to be true as yours couldn't be more incorrect.

I'm sure you know what is required of an extraordinary claim, right?

 

now speculating about the 2nd part of your post, what are the 'graver crimes' that you mention atheists are comitting in majority? if you define what you mean by grave crimes, maybe we can find some data to get some answers.

also, if these people are really atheists, why would they become religious after? what escape door is that that you are talking about? as an atheist you should realize that whatever you do in this world has consequences in this world. if you believe there's an afterlife you can escape to, then you're not an atheist to begin with...

 

do you see why i'm having problems understanding your position exactly?



I know that you may say you are a religion just because your parents were and you always went to church with them, but if you don't actually follow and act how you believe then you are just nothing. A lot of people in this world don't care to be athiest, religious or anything. They all just want to party, do bad things, and make money. When they have time to think, that is when they finally decide on one or the other or maybe even a mix. What was George Washington?



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setsunatenshi said:

also, if these people are really atheists, why would they become religious after? what escape door is that that you are talking about? as an atheist you should realize that whatever you do in this world has consequences in this world. if you believe there's an afterlife you can escape to, then you're not an atheist to begin with...

 

Because people need/want to believe in something when all hope is lost,it makes them feel better,it helps them think that they still have a chance.How do you think these people feel when they are put in prison?It's like the end of the world for most of them.Do you even know someone who has been in prison?Have you talked to him on the matter?I don't think so.



kitler53 said:

my grip about this study is it seems to confuse the term atheist with non-religious.  just because you haven't aligned yourself with one of the other relgions of the world does not make you an atheist.

an atheist believes that there is no god.

a non-religious (in the way they are using it here) means you aren't associated with any church/whatever.

 

as far as i'm concerned, atheisism is a religion.  if you haven't given serious thought to your choice to not believe in god you are more agnostic then athiest imo.


the word belief does not equate to religious belief. i believe you are a person writing that post, not a bot. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty convinced I'm right in my belief. Is this a religious belief?

There are several god claims made by several religions and all that atheism does is say 'sorry, I don't believe your claims are fundamented'. that's it. there's no positive claim being made, it's just a response to the positive claims of religions.

Ateism doesn't exist unless religious people make claims about supernatural things. So how can you call it a religion? (atheism is as much of a religion as bald is a hair color) ;)

on a side note, agnosticism is the positive claim that 'we don't know if a god exists until it proves itself'. you can be agnostic atheist (i don't know if a god exists, but I believe it doesn't) or agnostic theist (i don't know if a god exists, but I believe it does).

so being agnostic doesn't stop you from being atheist :)



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Mordred11 said:
setsunatenshi said:

also, if these people are really atheists, why would they become religious after? what escape door is that that you are talking about? as an atheist you should realize that whatever you do in this world has consequences in this world. if you believe there's an afterlife you can escape to, then you're not an atheist to begin with...

 

Because people need/want to believe in something when all hope is lost,it makes them feel better,it helps them think that they still have a chance.How do you think these people feel when they are put in prison?It's like the end of the world for most of them.Do you even know someone who has been in prison?Have you talked to him on the matter?I don't think so.


Do you need/want to believe in something to make you feel better even if you are convinced it's not true? If yes, then why are you an atheist? If no, then why are you speaking for other people if you don't share their views about the world?

I'm sorry, but you are failing to convince me that an atheist put in prison becomes a religious person. 

I'm willing to concede though... maybe a person who never considered any religious claim to get to their own position could be converted to religion by ending up in jail. But I don't think it would be fair to call this person atheist simply because they never picked a religion. In my oppinion you can only become an atheist after you considered the claims from religions and consciously decided to reject them. If you never considered a religious claim, it's meaningless to call such person an atheist, since religion is a non subject to that individual.

but we were not talking about those kind of 'atheists' were we?



setsunatenshi said:

I'm only going to say this,and I'm done with our argument.

Prison CHANGES people...it changes them a lot.It makes them change their principles,their view on the world.

A person acts/thinks depending on the environment they live in.Take a man from their natural environment,and put him in a whole different one.That man is guaranteed to change.



setsunatenshi said:
kitler53 said:

my grip about this study is it seems to confuse the term atheist with non-religious.  just because you haven't aligned yourself with one of the other relgions of the world does not make you an atheist.

an atheist believes that there is no god.

a non-religious (in the way they are using it here) means you aren't associated with any church/whatever.

 

as far as i'm concerned, atheisism is a religion.  if you haven't given serious thought to your choice to not believe in god you are more agnostic then athiest imo.


the word belief does not equate to religious belief. i believe you are a person writing that post, not a bot. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty convinced I'm right in my belief. Is this a religious belief?

There are several god claims made by several religions and all that atheism does is say 'sorry, I don't believe your claims are fundamented'. that's it. there's no positive claim being made, it's just a response to the positive claims of religions.

Ateism doesn't exist unless religious people make claims about supernatural things. So how can you call it a religion? (atheism is as much of a religion as bald is a hair color) ;)

on a side note, agnosticism is the positive claim that 'we don't know if a god exists until it proves itself'. you can be agnostic atheist (i don't know if a god exists, but I believe it doesn't) or agnostic theist (i don't know if a god exists, but I believe it does).

so being agnostic doesn't stop you from being atheist :)

religion as a word is rooted to the 12th century and at the time the meaning was more of a "conciece awareness of the greater influences to which we are tied to".  it wasn't until around the 18th century that the word morphed into what you are defining it as today.  i prefer the older definition in part because i want to qualify athiest as a religion because i view it as my religion.

the non-religious are the ones that are not conscientious of the "bigger picture".  of those that are conscientious, most believe in some sort of a god.  some, as i do, don't believe in an external influence such as god and only believe in the world as i see it now.  some don't know which belief, if any, is true. 

my point is only this:  there is a huge distiction between not giving religion any thought and giving religion thought and coming to the conclusion that there is no god. 



Mordred11 said:
setsunatenshi said:

I'm only going to say this,and I'm done with our argument.

Prison CHANGES people...it changes them a lot.It makes them change their principles,their view on the world.

A person acts/thinks depending on the environment they live in.Take a man from their natural environment,and put him in a whole different one.That man is guaranteed to change.


I agree 100% with that. People do change their views all the time... but let's admit people who have no clear and informed oppinion about the subjects (for intelectual laziness or lack of a propper education) are far more easily persuaded to change their views. 

But like I said from the beggining, it's usually religious people who make the claims about atheists being immoral and without values and so on... it's on them to explain why the hell there aren't so many more atheists in prison afterall.



kitler53 said:
setsunatenshi said:
kitler53 said:

my grip about this study is it seems to confuse the term atheist with non-religious.  just because you haven't aligned yourself with one of the other relgions of the world does not make you an atheist.

an atheist believes that there is no god.

a non-religious (in the way they are using it here) means you aren't associated with any church/whatever.

 

as far as i'm concerned, atheisism is a religion.  if you haven't given serious thought to your choice to not believe in god you are more agnostic then athiest imo.


the word belief does not equate to religious belief. i believe you are a person writing that post, not a bot. I might be wrong, but I'm pretty convinced I'm right in my belief. Is this a religious belief?

There are several god claims made by several religions and all that atheism does is say 'sorry, I don't believe your claims are fundamented'. that's it. there's no positive claim being made, it's just a response to the positive claims of religions.

Ateism doesn't exist unless religious people make claims about supernatural things. So how can you call it a religion? (atheism is as much of a religion as bald is a hair color) ;)

on a side note, agnosticism is the positive claim that 'we don't know if a god exists until it proves itself'. you can be agnostic atheist (i don't know if a god exists, but I believe it doesn't) or agnostic theist (i don't know if a god exists, but I believe it does).

so being agnostic doesn't stop you from being atheist :)

religion as a word is rooted to the 12th century and at the time the meaning was more of a "conciece awareness of the greater influences to which we are tied to".  it wasn't until around the 18th century that the word morphed into what you are defining it as today.  i prefer the older definition in part because i want to qualify athiest as a religion because i view it as my religion.

the non-religious are the ones that are not conscientious of the "bigger picture".  of those that are conscientious, most believe in some sort of a god.  some, as i do, don't believe in an external influence such as god and only believe in the world as i see it now.  some don't know which belief, if any, is true. 

my point is only this:  there is a huge distiction between not giving religion any thought and giving religion thought and coming to the conclusion that there is no god. 

Well, if we don't want to be debating semantics on an internet forum, it would be better for all if we stuck with the more familiar meaning of words and how the huge amount of people understands them.

I believe you will only be causing yourself a problem when mixing atheism as your 'religion'. I say this because then you will be viewed as the person with the positive claim that there are no gods and therefore you will have the burden of proof on this one. On the otherhand if you say you are (for example) a secular humanist and a rationalist, then you would probably still be stating your 'religious' view of the reality and atheism would simply be a consequence of your rationalistic view. Therefore when someone would ask you to prove a god doesn't exist, you can reply 'define your god and I will tell you if I believe in it or not'.

to make it simple, simply saying you're an atheist is meaningless. to be an atheist you need to be in respect to a certain claim that someone will put (like YHWH created the world in 7 days and heaven exists somewhere in the sky) and then you can be an atheist to that god claim.

 

(i hope i could explain myself well, sorry if i didn't)