By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Nintendo Developer Hints at Metroid Wii U

RolStoppable said:
gumby_trucker said:

l don't disagree with you about Other M. When I say Samus should be more agile and acrobatic, by no means am l suggesting this should come at the expense of control. Otherwise, just as you say it isn't empowering at all. The funny thing about Other M is that it's actualIy not too hard to imagine those flaws you mentioned fixed. Dodging could easily be made directional with the d-pad, artificial walls could be removed from ledges and other areas, and even auto- aim could be eliminated by having Samus only shoot in the direction she is facing. I don't remember if the game used all eight directions on the d-pad for movement but this should definiteIy be the case if they continue to go with this style. As for aiming diagonally at the ceiling or at higher ground, this could have been done by pressing the B button along with facing the desired direction on the d-pad. ln fact l am hoping that this kind of control scheme (along with the first person view) is something Nintendo include in future games, if they intend to continue making Metroid in this style. They should have also given the player these options in Other M ,IMO, leaving the current ones only as an option for novices.

Also, I agree that having this level of agility is not completely possible in 3D, but if it was played in 3rd person then at least there would have been room for more interesting and sophisticated moves which definitely couldn't work in first person. That's why l feel 3rd person should be the main view, with first person used for scanning and perhaps certain weapons where it is more appropriate. A lot of people hated this in Other M but I thought it worked.

Just about everything in Other M could have been fixed with a Wiimote/Nunchuk setup. An analog stick is more convenient for movement in a 3D space, the manual aiming could be done with the pointer (your suggestion of holding a button to aim diagonally would be clunky and cumbersome) and the need to switch into first person mode could be completely eliminated and be made entirely optional.

Other M's basic concept is not bad at all, but its execution was terrible in so many ways. In the end it barely resembled what a Metroid game is supposed to be which is why its sales ended up being so low. Metroid cannot be a massmarket game like Super Mario or Zelda, because some of its built-in characteristics prevent it from being so. The only way to make Metroid mainstream would require the game to cease being Metroid, but even then the chances to become popular would be very slim. The destruction of the series would be a much more likely outcome.

In other words, bring Retro back to the table (unless they are making a DKC Returns 2 game).



Around the Network
RolStoppable said:
Linkasf said:

In other words, bring Retro back to the table (unless they are making a DKC Returns 2 game).

I think the main reason why Retro Studios is such a good developer is because they are fans of the IPs they were working on. They had great respect for the source material and it shows in their games.

Contrast that with Sakamoto who said that enemies dropping energy capsules and missiles is a stupid element of the Metroid series and his entire idea of who Samus Aran is and why Metroid fans are fans of Metroid.

Wow... If I had known Sakamoto said that I don't think I would have even considered buying the game... I wish there was more in Other M because it was way too short and lacked too much =_=. I got 99% of the damn missles and whatever else I'm just missing one which I don't feel like finding out how to get it. Retro can make a better side scrolling Metroid game and I think the series deserves a reboot. They should ask Christopher Nolan for a few pointers, it could make a best game of all time contender on our hands! :p



What exactly is the point of Other M? Seriously, what is it?

When you control your character with a d-pad in a 3D space and have one button to aim diagonally, you still aren't able to properly cover any given position of an enemy. d-pad controls equal eight directions, not 360° freedom. You would need to constantly readjust the position of your character to be able to hit enemies. Similarly, switching back and forth between views for more precise shooting would mean giving up on movement.

With a Wiimote/Nunchuk setup you could move in any direction at any time while shooting in any direction at any time. That is complete control without any tradeoffs. Running through corridors while killing off enemies like in Other M could be done at the same speed, but completely manually.

RolStoppable said:
gumby_trucker said:

playing Other M with a remote and nunchuck is completely missing the point of the entire game. Pressing another button to shoot in certain directions is no more clunky than having a lock-on button in 3D games. In fact, I only suggested this addition because super metroid had diagonal aiming, but with other m's controls this option is actually made redundant now that I think of it. Switching back and forth between views is IMO a perfect solution to the problem of integrating agile movement and platforming with scanning and precise shooting. Scanning and platforming should have been done better in the game (not to mention lock-on being optional) , but the point still stands. Regarding movement in 1st person,I already explained why l don't think this is a great fit with Metroid anyway. And nowhere am l suggesting that Metroid should try to become a mass-market game, quite the opposite in fact.

The point was to create a modern game which retained the simplicity and oldschool feel of classic NES games, therefor allowing for a reintroduction to the series as well as a homage to the original. Based on that the method of control was probably the first thing to be decided upon. It's true that this approach didn't have to imply the game be so linear, but it did essentially have to play like a side-scroller, and everything from the level design to the camera system was built to accommodate this. Giving the player an analog stick would have practically broken the game because for the most part you only have two directions to choose from when moving. This is not just my opinion, it's all documented in the Iwata Asks features with Sakamoto and Team Ninja.

Just like in the original or Super Metroid where you could only aim in a limited number of directions, the game's level design and enemy placement is built to accommodate your limited aiming. In that sense it wouldn't have been impossible to do away with auto-aiming altogether had the decision been made. You're not meant to have absolute directional control just like you don't have it in Super Metroid, which helps create a smoother, more streamlined experience.

The addition of the pointer controls was something Team Ninja suggested later in order to afford a limited amount of 3D spatial awareness, expand the gameplay and also balance out the game's oldschool design by adding a few modern, cutting-edge features. To each his own but I found this marriage of old and new intriguing and engaging. Regarding the loss of movement, the way you describe it it actually makes a lot of sense, since accurate precise shots are usually not something you can perform when not standing still. To me personally this also went along well with the idea of not being able to fire missiles in 3rd person, because more powerful and destructive weapons usually also require more precise aiming and calibration.
The developers realized that not eveybody would feel comfortable making this transition all the time, or that some would have trouble doing it quickly, which is why many of the game's more intense battles can be beaten in ways that don't involve constant use of missiles, and also why they added the cool bullet-time effect that slows the game down, gaining you an extra half-second or so, whenever you enter first person.

Regarding your last sentence, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Using my previous suggestion you could just as easily run through corridors shooting enemies as you go, and without the need for lock-on.



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

RolStoppable said:

That's a fundamentally flawed point, because as soon as you move a game into 3D space you automatically lose the simplicity and oldschool feel of NES games. Sakamoto set a goal that could not be reached.

Also, you are mistaking having two directions to progress with options for movement. You might be in a corridor that only has one exit on either side, but within this corridor you can move in a 3D space. This then isn't just left and right, but also into the screen and towards the camera. This is also why you don't understand what I am talking about. Suppose there is a corridor with flying enemies (there are actually quite some of those in Other M), with your proposed control scheme you could not run straight through and kill everything, instead at best you would need to run in snake lines to take them all out which would still be slower (even if you perfected it) than the way it actually is in Other M or how it would be with pointer controls.

Regarding realism in using heavy weapons, this is a video game and with Samus being able to use super missiles in Super Metroid mid-air after doing several somersaults it's unreasonable to suggest that slowing the game and the player down was a good idea or even logical.

you do realize Other M is not a 3D game, right? It's a 2D game  - just like the originals - only rendered with polygons. For the most part gameplay takes place on a single plane. I'm not sure what your criticism is, then.
My point about stopping in order to aim was less about realism for its own sake, and more about immersion.



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

gumby_trucker said:
RolStoppable said:

That's a fundamentally flawed point, because as soon as you move a game into 3D space you automatically lose the simplicity and oldschool feel of NES games. Sakamoto set a goal that could not be reached.

Also, you are mistaking having two directions to progress with options for movement. You might be in a corridor that only has one exit on either side, but within this corridor you can move in a 3D space. This then isn't just left and right, but also into the screen and towards the camera. This is also why you don't understand what I am talking about. Suppose there is a corridor with flying enemies (there are actually quite some of those in Other M), with your proposed control scheme you could not run straight through and kill everything, instead at best you would need to run in snake lines to take them all out which would still be slower (even if you perfected it) than the way it actually is in Other M or how it would be with pointer controls.

Regarding realism in using heavy weapons, this is a video game and with Samus being able to use super missiles in Super Metroid mid-air after doing several somersaults it's unreasonable to suggest that slowing the game and the player down was a good idea or even logical.

you do realize Other M is not a 3D game, right? It's a 2D game  - just like the originals - only rendered with polygons. For the most part gameplay takes place on a single plane. I'm not sure what your criticism is, then.
My point about stopping in order to aim was less about realism for its own sake, and more about immersion.

Like Rol, i'm not seeing where you're getting that from. Most of Other M features 360 degree movement, except for that one volcano in Sector 3 and the gravity room in Sector 2 and perhaps a handful of other areas



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Around the Network

@Rol, Mr Khan - just saw your replies now. Seeing as I am going to need a long and detailed post to explain my point of view, I'll have to postpone the reply until later as I am currently busy at work.

No worries about sounding harsh Rol, I'm not offended



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

Discussions on what they could have done with Other M are now usless because they are working on a new metroid on a new console.

We must worry about the usage made out for the WiiU tablet (maybe a menù/map so i do not have to go in pause every single minute. If they do it either way and FPA or a 2.5D one thing must be sure, there must be freedom and the game must not tell you everysingle second where to go.

We must be vigilant and look at every image and trailer that Nintendo will release and, if it's the case, point out and say: "hey, we want that changed!"

Speaking on the past will only change the focus of our minds and lose the shot.



Spiders den are not for men.

My gaming channel: Stefano and the Spiders.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MultiSpider87?feature=mhum

First allow me to apologize to the original maker of this thread and its followers. This will be my last post on the matter and I apologize for derailing the thread from its original topic.

This is my delayed response to Rol and Mr Khan  - sorry it took so long, I was out of town for the last few days.

Why Other M felt like a 2D game to me
(aka gumby's nutcase essay )

According to Sakamoto, his original vision for Metroid Other M was basically to create an "NES game with the latest technology". This is also evident in his original vision for the game, which was meant to be played solely with the Wii remote held sideways.
The addition of pointer controls was only implemented much later by Team Ninja and was not something that was taken lightly by Sakamoto.

Having said that, let's start by looking at the game in its "purist" form, by which I mean the parts that more closely resemble the original vision. I will address the other parts of the game later.
The game is rendered in polygons. Movement takes place on a plain with a limited number of discrete directions. Areas throughout the game mostly consist of either segments which have one dominant direction (with the orthogonal one being severely constrained) such as hallways, bridges, some of the bio-decks, and so on, or very small contained areas which offer movement in all directions, such as boss-fight rooms, character gathering (story-related) areas, a few other bio-decks, etc.

There are also some occasional simple branching 2d paths (be it to gather upgrades or to reach other areas), but in general no real movement in all directions is available in the game (at most 8, usually 4 are enough). Additionally, there is no control over camera in the game's primary mode of play (when remote is held sideways) - it is essentially a static camera, be it side-viewing, isometric, back-facing or otherwise. The fact that the camera angle is different in every room is just an aesthetic design decision, and does nothing to change the fact that gameplay is always relative to a certain fixed point of view.

Here is a short Metroid Other M gameplay trailer to demonstrate some of my points - not the best video to serve my purpose, but you've played the game so you probably get what I mean.

Now let's compare the above characteristics to some old classic games:

sprite-based areas featuring one dominant direction:
Classic Game Room HD - GOLDEN AXE

sprite-based small contained area (boss-fight):
Golden Axe Revenge of Death Adder

2d branching paths:
Monkey Island

other examples of games that incorporated some or all of these features include double dragon, river city ransom etc. The classic "walk towards/away from the camera" is also something seen in many many old 2D games.
So despite not being featured in previous 2d Metroid games (which were played from a strict "side-view" with only left-right movement on each platform),  all these elements are essentially classic 2d elements.

To make a more direct comparison, in terms of "feel", this:
Metroid Other M [Part 15 - Sector 3 - Mini Boss 5] - http://youtu.be/R7Wx45AopZc?t=5m35s
to me, feels a lot more similar to this:
Metroid Fusion Final Boss Battle + Ending - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2ErIS8cDIA&feature=related
than to a full-fledged 3d game like Mario 64 that has full freedom of movement, no fixed paths, and control over the camera - this last element is even something the creators of Mario 64 felt was enough of a distinguishing feature that they needed to deliberately point it out to the player - if you remember the mirror room, the camera is in fact its own character.

Now for my second point. The addition of "on demand" pointer controls are, in this context, more of a neat "hook" to go along with the 2D gameplay than an addition of another dimention IMO.
At any given moment the player can, in addition to viewing the game from the default perspective, "jump in" the game-world to get a glimpse of the character's point of view. This is obviously no more than a glimpse because it only allows you to rotate around a single point, ie: offers no movement to the player and thus can not be seen as a complete mode of play.
Personally this also reminds me of classic games from before the 3D era like Myst, or Zork: Nemesis, where you could basically "jump" around between pre-renderred 360 degree pictures but weren't actually a physical part of the gameworld.

In fact it is not difficult to imagine such a game existing before the era of 3D graphics, where you essentially play from a side-scrolling or isometric 2D point of view, and occasionally have the option to "jump" into these points of interest which would show you pre-renderred 360 degree images from a first person perspective. Such a game very well may have been made that I am not aware of.
The only difference Other M offers to such a design is that it is based on real time polygons and as such allows you to jump into first person at any time and not just at discrete points in each room. Personally I don't see this difference as being so significant that it completely transforms the game from one style to another. Obviously it is a more modern, more natural and also more convenient way to do it than was possible before real-time 3D graphics, but that's about it.

Another way to look at this is by comparing it to what many of us had probably imagined as children when we played old 2D games: "what would the world look like from the character's perspective, if we could see it even for just a second?"

This kind of idea was incorporated in the likes of Lemmings 3D (there is no control over the Lemming in this view), or the many First Person Mario 1-1 vids floating around the internet, or even Super paper Mario to an extent. The last example is a good comparison because it shares many elements in common with Other M. Even though SPM takes place in a 3D world, the gameplay is essentially that of a 2D game with a few bells and whistles hooked on. It is definitely not a 3D game like Mario 64, Sunshine, etc.

If the line of thinking I've presented means that many other modern polygonal games are also essentially 2D games, that's because I agree with that conclusion.

As a final note, I also think it's interesting to see just how varied different people's perception of this game are, and how that perception probably also affects their opinion of the game.
I'm not trying to sway anyone in either direction, but let me say personally that if I viewed Other M as a 3D game with features taken away, I would also be far more critical of its basic design than I would if viewing it as a 2D game with some added bells and whistles.

I think responses should continue via PM or a new thread so as not to further derail this one.

I now return you to your scheduled programming



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

Rol beat me to the punch on this, but yeah. I'd agree that it felt like a 2D game in many ways (and part of what gave Other M the feel of an old-school Metroid, even as the actual game progression structure skewed so far from that), but that doesn't make it a 2D game



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.