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Forums - Sony Discussion - PS3: 'Still a Pain in the Ass' for Developers

Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:
blkfish92 said:

Bull- why don't developers simply develop on the ps3 first then follow up by porting to 360 and/or wii?

-Side note it's a forum I have a say in any conversation.

Because then we have the same problem in reverse. The PS3 although powerful places heavy constraints on the game developers.

You cannot just start coding and hope for the best. Memory is such a finite resource in the PS3 that every subroutine and every texture has to be thought about in advance.

The 360 allows you to "share" the memory between CPU and GPU. People say this leads to lazy development and maybe it does to a point but the PS3 alternative is enforced development by straight jacket.

Effectively you can get away with a lot more "loose" coding for the 360 without taking a performace hit.

Try that on the PS3 and you are looking at low frame rates and screen tear city.

I think John Carmack said it best "The memory architecture of the PS3 was a curious choice"

I think you are overstating the constraints.  Instead of 512 unified it's 256 and 256, it's not like NONE of the 360's 512 is going to the CPU.  I'd guess (and I admit it's a guess) it only feels like a "straitjacket" to those who carelessly wrote for the 360 without even considering that they would have to port it to the PS3 later.  Cry moar, I'm sure there are some problems if people do the opposite as well. 

Anyway, back when this debate was raging originally, I'd gotten the impression that the Cell processor (with its kind-of-independent SPUs) was the biggest problem going from 360 to PS3.  Not so, or not anymore? 

I believe that most of the learning curve regarding the Cell has been understood and adopted into Modern Game Engines. Its still a bit of a pain and its hard to extract every last bit of power but the Cell is powerful enough to match strides with the more conventional architectures.

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.



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Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you are overstating the constraints.  Instead of 512 unified it's 256 and 256, it's not like NONE of the 360's 512 is going to the CPU.  I'd guess (and I admit it's a guess) it only feels like a "straitjacket" to those who carelessly wrote for the 360 without even considering that they would have to port it to the PS3 later.  Cry moar, I'm sure there are some problems if people do the opposite as well. 

Anyway, back when this debate was raging originally, I'd gotten the impression that the Cell processor (with its kind-of-independent SPUs) was the biggest problem going from 360 to PS3.  Not so, or not anymore? 

I believe that most of the learning curve regarding the Cell has been understood and adopted into Modern Game Engines. Its still a bit of a pain and its hard to extract every last bit of power but the Cell is powerful enough to match strides with the more conventional architectures.

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 



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Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you are overstating the constraints.  Instead of 512 unified it's 256 and 256, it's not like NONE of the 360's 512 is going to the CPU.  I'd guess (and I admit it's a guess) it only feels like a "straitjacket" to those who carelessly wrote for the 360 without even considering that they would have to port it to the PS3 later.  Cry moar, I'm sure there are some problems if people do the opposite as well. 

Anyway, back when this debate was raging originally, I'd gotten the impression that the Cell processor (with its kind-of-independent SPUs) was the biggest problem going from 360 to PS3.  Not so, or not anymore? 

I believe that most of the learning curve regarding the Cell has been understood and adopted into Modern Game Engines. Its still a bit of a pain and its hard to extract every last bit of power but the Cell is powerful enough to match strides with the more conventional architectures.

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 


as much as the developer wants to allocate rather than being constrained to up to 256 for CPU and 256 for GPU* like the PS3, on the 360 if the developer wants to allocate 400MB to graphics then they can do that as long as they don't need the memory for something else and if the game needs more for CPU tasks then they can do that as well and the changes can can be made on the fly as well so if one level needs extra textures but has less physics then the system can do that. Which is one of the reasons why the 360 is easier to develop on.

* On the PS3 it is actually possible for the Cell to access VRAM and the GPU to access main RAM so devs can use the CELL for rendering tasks but it incurs a performance penalty from what I have read.



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zarx said:
Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 

as much as the developer wants to allocate rather than being constrained to up to 256 for CPU and 256 for GPU* like the PS3, on the 360 if the developer wants to allocate 400MB to graphics then they can do that as long as they don't need the memory for something else and if the game needs more for CPU tasks then they can do that as well and the changes can can be made on the fly as well so if one level needs extra textures but has less physics then the system can do that. Which is one of the reasons why the 360 is easier to develop on.

* On the PS3 it is actually possible for the Cell to access VRAM and the GPU to access main RAM so devs can use the CELL for rendering tasks but it incurs a performance penalty from what I have read.



That sounds great for cinematics, but I'd think that you'd usually want your nice graphics to go along with nice action.  So, to make this pertinent to the question I asked, is 400 MB a NORMAL amount to have on one side of the fence, and 100 on the other?  For gameplay, I mean? 

But thanks for the info about the PS3 being able to shift memory (at a penalty), I didn't know that. 



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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you are overstating the constraints.  Instead of 512 unified it's 256 and 256, it's not like NONE of the 360's 512 is going to the CPU.  I'd guess (and I admit it's a guess) it only feels like a "straitjacket" to those who carelessly wrote for the 360 without even considering that they would have to port it to the PS3 later.  Cry moar, I'm sure there are some problems if people do the opposite as well. 

Anyway, back when this debate was raging originally, I'd gotten the impression that the Cell processor (with its kind-of-independent SPUs) was the biggest problem going from 360 to PS3.  Not so, or not anymore? 

I believe that most of the learning curve regarding the Cell has been understood and adopted into Modern Game Engines. Its still a bit of a pain and its hard to extract every last bit of power but the Cell is powerful enough to match strides with the more conventional architectures.

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 

Fair Question....without a perfectly clear answer.

It ultimately depends what you are using the CPU for.....Complex recursive algorithms found in most games you may not be able to borrow too much.

However it provides flexability.

For instance people have often been amazed that the textures on the Xbox are so good given the restrictions of DVD size.

Say hello to clever use of the 360 memory to decompress textures on the fly before a level is loaded and the CPU requires much memory.

Need more texture memory fine just make the AI multi task in the available memory left. It may be a little slow but the 360 CPU whilist not the Cell can more than cover up momentary stalls.

The Key thing to realise is that the 360 memory can be constantly reallocated which makes for one heck of a powerful solution for Developers to toy with.

The memory architecture coupled with a fully specced GPU is the main reason the 360 has been able to slug it out toe to toe with the PS3 so long.

Rest assured however SONY are no fools they will have learnt from their mistakes and I doubt the PS4 will be handicapped in the same way as the PS3.



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Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you are overstating the constraints.  Instead of 512 unified it's 256 and 256, it's not like NONE of the 360's 512 is going to the CPU.  I'd guess (and I admit it's a guess) it only feels like a "straitjacket" to those who carelessly wrote for the 360 without even considering that they would have to port it to the PS3 later.  Cry moar, I'm sure there are some problems if people do the opposite as well. 

Anyway, back when this debate was raging originally, I'd gotten the impression that the Cell processor (with its kind-of-independent SPUs) was the biggest problem going from 360 to PS3.  Not so, or not anymore? 

I believe that most of the learning curve regarding the Cell has been understood and adopted into Modern Game Engines. Its still a bit of a pain and its hard to extract every last bit of power but the Cell is powerful enough to match strides with the more conventional architectures.

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 

Fair Question....without a perfectly clear answer.

It ultimately depends what you are using the CPU for.....Complex recursive algorithms found in most games you may not be able to borrow too much.

However it provides flexability.

For instance people have often been amazed that the textures on the Xbox are so good given the restrictions of DVD size.

Say hello to clever use of the 360 memory to decompress textures on the fly before a level is loaded and the CPU requires much memory.

Need more texture memory fine just make the AI multi task in the available memory left. It may be a little slow but the 360 CPU whilist not the Cell can more than cover up momentary stalls.

The Key thing to realise is that the 360 memory can be constantly reallocated which makes for one heck of a powerful solution for Developers to toy with.

The memory architecture coupled with a fully specced GPU is the main reason the 360 has been able to slug it out toe to toe with the PS3 so long.

Rest assured however SONY are no fools they will have learnt from their mistakes and I doubt the PS4 will be handicapped in the same way as the PS3.

Oh I should add the 360 memory architecture is probably the biggest fluke in the world.

I am lead to understand that shortly before launch Microsoft feared the PS3 would launch with 512 MB of memory as the original 360 had been planned to only have 256 MB.

In a panic not to be outdone MS shifted to a 512 MB architecture but the only memory commerically available at such short notice was fast 512 MB DDR3. In order to counter anything SONY could manage they went for a unified architecture.

So there you have it, Microsofts stroke of genius was the result of blind paranoia.



Final-Fan said:
zarx said:
Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 

as much as the developer wants to allocate rather than being constrained to up to 256 for CPU and 256 for GPU* like the PS3, on the 360 if the developer wants to allocate 400MB to graphics then they can do that as long as they don't need the memory for something else and if the game needs more for CPU tasks then they can do that as well and the changes can can be made on the fly as well so if one level needs extra textures but has less physics then the system can do that. Which is one of the reasons why the 360 is easier to develop on.

* On the PS3 it is actually possible for the Cell to access VRAM and the GPU to access main RAM so devs can use the CELL for rendering tasks but it incurs a performance penalty from what I have read.



That sounds great for cinematics, but I'd think that you'd usually want your nice graphics to go along with nice action.  So, to make this pertinent to the question I asked, is 400 MB a NORMAL amount to have on one side of the fence, and 100 on the other?  For gameplay, I mean? 

But thanks for the info about the PS3 being able to shift memory (at a penalty), I didn't know that. 

but that's the point there is no normal every engine and game will be different and even in one game it can shift depending on what's going on. As it is so fluid I don't think any devs have (if they even could) reveal what the split is like. The closest thing would probably be when the Epic guys said that Gears 2 couldn't run on PS3 because they used more than 256MB for graphics.



@TheVoxelman on twitter

Check out my hype threads: Cyberpunk, and The Witcher 3!

Cypher1980 said:
Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you are overstating the constraints.  Instead of 512 unified it's 256 and 256, it's not like NONE of the 360's 512 is going to the CPU.  I'd guess (and I admit it's a guess) it only feels like a "straitjacket" to those who carelessly wrote for the 360 without even considering that they would have to port it to the PS3 later.  Cry moar, I'm sure there are some problems if people do the opposite as well. 

Anyway, back when this debate was raging originally, I'd gotten the impression that the Cell processor (with its kind-of-independent SPUs) was the biggest problem going from 360 to PS3.  Not so, or not anymore? 

I believe that most of the learning curve regarding the Cell has been understood and adopted into Modern Game Engines. Its still a bit of a pain and its hard to extract every last bit of power but the Cell is powerful enough to match strides with the more conventional architectures.

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 

Fair Question....without a perfectly clear answer.

It ultimately depends what you are using the CPU for.....Complex recursive algorithms found in most games you may not be able to borrow too much.

However it provides flexability.

For instance people have often been amazed that the textures on the Xbox are so good given the restrictions of DVD size.

Say hello to clever use of the 360 memory to decompress textures on the fly before a level is loaded and the CPU requires much memory.

Need more texture memory fine just make the AI multi task in the available memory left. It may be a little slow but the 360 CPU whilist not the Cell can more than cover up momentary stalls.

The Key thing to realise is that the 360 memory can be constantly reallocated which makes for one heck of a powerful solution for Developers to toy with.

The memory architecture coupled with a fully specced GPU is the main reason the 360 has been able to slug it out toe to toe with the PS3 so long.

Rest assured however SONY are no fools they will have learnt from their mistakes and I doubt the PS4 will be handicapped in the same way as the PS3.

Oh I should add the 360 memory architecture is probably the biggest fluke in the world.

I am lead to understand that shortly before launch Microsoft feared the PS3 would launch with 512 MB of memory as the original 360 had been planned to only have 256 MB.

In a panic not to be outdone MS shifted to a 512 MB architecture but the only memory commerically available at such short notice was fast 512 MB DDR3. In order to counter anything SONY could manage they went for a unified architecture.

So there you have it, Microsofts stroke of genius was the result of blind paranoia.

I thought the reason the 360 has 512MB instead of 256MB was because of Epic Games. Didn't Cliffy B say the begged MS to up the RAM to 512 when they developing the first Gears of War?



Darc Requiem said:
Cypher1980 said:
Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:
Cypher1980 said:
Final-Fan said:

I think you are overstating the constraints.  Instead of 512 unified it's 256 and 256, it's not like NONE of the 360's 512 is going to the CPU.  I'd guess (and I admit it's a guess) it only feels like a "straitjacket" to those who carelessly wrote for the 360 without even considering that they would have to port it to the PS3 later.  Cry moar, I'm sure there are some problems if people do the opposite as well. 

Anyway, back when this debate was raging originally, I'd gotten the impression that the Cell processor (with its kind-of-independent SPUs) was the biggest problem going from 360 to PS3.  Not so, or not anymore? 

I believe that most of the learning curve regarding the Cell has been understood and adopted into Modern Game Engines. Its still a bit of a pain and its hard to extract every last bit of power but the Cell is powerful enough to match strides with the more conventional architectures.

The big problem now is indeed the memory constraints on the PS3. 256 MB is simply way too small for graphics nowadays. Imagine being a multiplat developer applying textures to your game on the PC dev kit (They nearly all are for multiplat) and constantly having a PS3 Texture limit reached warning crop up.

I honestly think the PS3 is a great machine held back by some terrible design choices. I expect the PS4 to have all these problems rectified.

OK, but how much of the 360's memory (over 256) can really be counted on?  (Honest question -- I'm curious and don't know.)  It's not like the CPU doesn't take any.  Definitely there is advantage to the 360 there, but it's not like the 360's memory is impressive compared to PC memory either. 

Fair Question....without a perfectly clear answer.

It ultimately depends what you are using the CPU for.....Complex recursive algorithms found in most games you may not be able to borrow too much.

However it provides flexability.

For instance people have often been amazed that the textures on the Xbox are so good given the restrictions of DVD size.

Say hello to clever use of the 360 memory to decompress textures on the fly before a level is loaded and the CPU requires much memory.

Need more texture memory fine just make the AI multi task in the available memory left. It may be a little slow but the 360 CPU whilist not the Cell can more than cover up momentary stalls.

The Key thing to realise is that the 360 memory can be constantly reallocated which makes for one heck of a powerful solution for Developers to toy with.

The memory architecture coupled with a fully specced GPU is the main reason the 360 has been able to slug it out toe to toe with the PS3 so long.

Rest assured however SONY are no fools they will have learnt from their mistakes and I doubt the PS4 will be handicapped in the same way as the PS3.

Oh I should add the 360 memory architecture is probably the biggest fluke in the world.

I am lead to understand that shortly before launch Microsoft feared the PS3 would launch with 512 MB of memory as the original 360 had been planned to only have 256 MB.

In a panic not to be outdone MS shifted to a 512 MB architecture but the only memory commerically available at such short notice was fast 512 MB DDR3. In order to counter anything SONY could manage they went for a unified architecture.

So there you have it, Microsofts stroke of genius was the result of blind paranoia.

I thought the reason the 360 has 512MB instead of 256MB was because of Epic Games. Didn't Cliffy B say the begged MS to up the RAM to 512 when they developing the first Gears of War?


That's what I read at Beyond3D forums some time ago.



Kynes said:
Darc Requiem said:
Cypher1980 said:

Oh I should add the 360 memory architecture is probably the biggest fluke in the world.

I am lead to understand that shortly before launch Microsoft feared the PS3 would launch with 512 MB of memory as the original 360 had been planned to only have 256 MB.

In a panic not to be outdone MS shifted to a 512 MB architecture but the only memory commerically available at such short notice was fast 512 MB DDR3. In order to counter anything SONY could manage they went for a unified architecture.

So there you have it, Microsofts stroke of genius was the result of blind paranoia.

I thought the reason the 360 has 512MB instead of 256MB was because of Epic Games. Didn't Cliffy B say the begged MS to up the RAM to 512 when they developing the first Gears of War?

That's what I read at Beyond3D forums some time ago.

But it doesn't mean that his begging was the reason they did it.  I have no idea how much influence he (and Epic) had in MS, but doubling the RAM would have been a significant decision.  It could also have been due to both reasons. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom!