Forums - Gaming Discussion - 3rd parties rejecting the Wii is a lose-lose situation?

3rd parties rejecting the Wii is a lose-lose situation?

Lose-Lose. It's true. 38 50.67%
 
Nah, is just market saturation 20 26.67%
 
I blame WiiFit 17 22.67%
 
Total:75
kitler53 said:

i'm soo sick and tired of the wii fans whining all the time about 3rd party wii support.  the wii got tons of third party support.  but they did it in they way that third parties always to it ... they saw which software was being sucessful and tried to cash in on that sucess.

wii fit sold more than 20M  units and for that you got dozens of fitness games.

wii sports/wii play sold more than 20M each and for that you got dozens of mini game collections

smash bros sold over 10M and for that you about a dozen quality fighters

metroid barely cracked 1.5M  for that you got really nothing.

third parties chase sucess, that's just what they do.  they see a market and try to capture it.  nintendo showed the most sucessful markets on the wii were fitness and mini-games and that what third parties tried to cash in on.  HD consoles get almost nothing but shooters and that's third parties trying to cash in on the success of halo/CoD. 

third parties are not responible for creating markets .. that's the platform owners duty.  if you want to blame anyone about what kind of games you got on the wii blame nintendo for not trying to create that market on their system.

and while your at it consider this ... for all of the "casual" success nintendo had they haven't been able to recreate that since New Super Mario Wii a few years back in terms of software and the 3DS seems to be showing nintendo missed the mark entirely with that hardware.  this "causual" market isn't exactly an easy market to crack.  if nintendo can't cater to this market consitently why do you expect anyone else to be able to do that?

I see you post in topics like this all the time with your insane and ancedotal, half-assed statements. I pretty muc always ignore you because, well, I know that is your personality, but you made a statement about Smash Bros and then getting fighting games and that is just way over the line. With the success of Smash Bros, you would think games like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Blaz Blu, Guilty Gear, would show up in full force right? Right? What about a DOA game? What was that, nothing of the sort? Hell, the 3DS is got Super IV and DOA with I believe a Blaz Blu on the way... and those are all coming bacause that was an established market for the platform, right?

Unfortunately for you, there is not much fact within what you post. Developers put their money where they believe they can make money. The put these games on 3DS because they think they will sell well on the console, despite what the console sales themselves look like. The same thing with home console games. It is all about busniess. Point blank, Monster Hunter Tri came out on Wii exclusively because they thought it was the best BUSINESS decision, not because the market was proven on for the game. Nintendo have NEVER catered to the market you speak about, yet half of the video gaming generations (just like this one), will end up with Nintendo as the console sales leader. Third parties have better relationships and better funding from Sony and Microsoft, point blank. To say it is about market this or that when it is clearly not is just crazy. Nintendo never made a Mortal Kombat game, yet thee SNES got a bunch of those.

The problem is that people like us do not understand the business side of things. If Microsoft and Sony can create better business plans, advertisement, and deals for third party developers, then the developers are going to develop for their console. It is very simple really, but we do not know thee atmosphere. I mean, why else would Japanese developers want to develop for XBOX 360 when it will never make a sales dent in Japans home console market? Because business is probably better for them there. And that business is supplied by Microsoft themselves moreso than the consumer.



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GhaudePhaede010 said:
kitler53 said:

i'm soo sick and tired of the wii fans whining all the time about 3rd party wii support.  the wii got tons of third party support.  but they did it in they way that third parties always to it ... they saw which software was being sucessful and tried to cash in on that sucess.

wii fit sold more than 20M  units and for that you got dozens of fitness games.

wii sports/wii play sold more than 20M each and for that you got dozens of mini game collections

smash bros sold over 10M and for that you about a dozen quality fighters

metroid barely cracked 1.5M  for that you got really nothing.

third parties chase sucess, that's just what they do.  they see a market and try to capture it.  nintendo showed the most sucessful markets on the wii were fitness and mini-games and that what third parties tried to cash in on.  HD consoles get almost nothing but shooters and that's third parties trying to cash in on the success of halo/CoD. 

third parties are not responible for creating markets .. that's the platform owners duty.  if you want to blame anyone about what kind of games you got on the wii blame nintendo for not trying to create that market on their system.

and while your at it consider this ... for all of the "casual" success nintendo had they haven't been able to recreate that since New Super Mario Wii a few years back in terms of software and the 3DS seems to be showing nintendo missed the mark entirely with that hardware.  this "causual" market isn't exactly an easy market to crack.  if nintendo can't cater to this market consitently why do you expect anyone else to be able to do that?

I see you post in topics like this all the time with your insane and ancedotal, half-assed statements. I pretty muc always ignore you because, well, I know that is your personality, but you made a statement about Smash Bros and then getting fighting games and that is just way over the line. With the success of Smash Bros, you would think games like Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Blaz Blu, Guilty Gear, would show up in full force right? Right? What about a DOA game? What was that, nothing of the sort? Hell, the 3DS is got Super IV and DOA with I believe a Blaz Blu on the way... and those are all coming bacause that was an established market for the platform, right?

Unfortunately for you, there is not much fact within what you post. Developers put their money where they believe they can make money. The put these games on 3DS because they think they will sell well on the console, despite what the console sales themselves look like. The same thing with home console games. It is all about busniess. Point blank, Monster Hunter Tri came out on Wii exclusively because they thought it was the best BUSINESS decision, not because the market was proven on for the game. Nintendo have NEVER catered to the market you speak about, yet half of the video gaming generations (just like this one), will end up with Nintendo as the console sales leader. Third parties have better relationships and better funding from Sony and Microsoft, point blank. To say it is about market this or that when it is clearly not is just crazy. Nintendo never made a Mortal Kombat game, yet thee SNES got a bunch of those.

The problem is that people like us do not understand the business side of things. If Microsoft and Sony can create better business plans, advertisement, and deals for third party developers, then the developers are going to develop for their console. It is very simple really, but we do not know thee atmosphere. I mean, why else would Japanese developers want to develop for XBOX 360 when it will never make a sales dent in Japans home console market? Because business is probably better for them there. And that business is supplied by Microsoft themselves moreso than the consumer.

thing is i don't have really anything to disagree with you here.

the business side of things is all part of the game and something nintendo didn't play well.  sony made deals for batman AA, demon souls, heavy rain, assasins creed.  MS did it with mass effect, CoD dlc, timed exclusives in several places.  all of this was those platform owners paying up money (or ad spots or whatever) in order to cater to, advertise, and establish a certain type of market. 

nintendo was making billion profits and did nothing to cater to the "core" market.  they just sat around and thought somehow things would just be handed to them without effort on their part.  it didn't happen.  eventually they landed monster hunter tri and metroid other M and made it a focus of their line up and ad campain.  if nintendo wanted the "core" market that's exactly what they should have been doing the entire time ... creating that market.

i mean, it's not like you saw a flood of software that was expanded market friendly on the ps360 early on.  MS had to invest in kinect heavily in order to gain that support.  Sony half-assed it with move and got pretty much exactly what they deserve from that, nothing.

to your smash bros comment: wii got a bunch of fighters early on - bleach, tatsunoko vs capcom, several narutos, TMNT smash up and none of them came close to the sucess that SSBB had.  now if wii was easy to port to i'd bet my life SSF and MK would have been ported over.  but since that would have required a new game to be made from the ground up for the wii (ala star wars the force unleashed) the business of the situation isn't the same.



kitler53  makes some good points, lets be real Wii sold because of things like Just Dance, Wii SPorts and Fit and that is in fact what third parties made. I see where some of these WIi fans are talking about, but what are these games that you all wanted that you felt you should have gotten?? And if it is truly a buisness decision and not a install base thing, then why are we faulting companies for doing what they think is best for their buisness??



I don't get why some people here are blaming consumers why this is what happen to them. it's not like you can buy a game that you can't love in the end. I think Nintendo and third party developers are the ones to blame. It's the fault of Nintendo for building an image that they cater for the casual market. Ps2 got its mega success from becoming a one-stop console where every genre that a gamer could like can be found in there not by building an image like "hey these are the games we make and these are what we can only offer".

It's also the fault of third party developers for not optimizing the wii's potential and made games that are of inferior quality that of the ones nintendo makes. if they treated wii as a next-gen console just like PS3 or 360, then better games for Wii could have interested more people in and outside their targeted audience.



oniyide said:

kitler53  makes some good points, lets be real Wii sold because of things like Just Dance, Wii SPorts and Fit and that is in fact what third parties made. I see where some of these WIi fans are talking about, but what are these games that you all wanted that you felt you should have gotten?? And if it is truly a buisness decision and not a install base thing, then why are we faulting companies for doing what they think is best for their buisness??


thanks :/

.. and for the record i empathize with wii fans disappointment in the current software situation.  i'm not sure many people even remember that when i first joined vgchartz i was a huuge nintendo fanboy.  the difference is i blame nintendo for the situation instead of anyone else.



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^^^ i kind sort of emphasize but i blame both, my problem is with people who talk like Ninty is perfect and they never ever screw up, ever. THey messed up with using cartridges for N64 when every was moving to disc, when they did move to disc with GC they half assed it with some mini disc crap, the whole online WiiWare isnt even half assed, its 1 3rd assed, and they didnt even improve upon it. wiispeak instead of headsets, Virtual Boy. The other 2 screw up as well, everyone does

@kurasakichimaru  here's the thing though, the Wii is not a next gen console, not in terms of hardware capability. 3rd parties cant make a next gen game for a console that cant handle it.  I do agree that they didnt even push the WIi, but come on some people overestimate what the WII can do



kitler53 said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:

As I've been saying since about 2007 or so, its not the consumers or Nintendos fault.  Its the third parties themselves.  They almost completely ignored the Wii for 2 years.  Then when they finally realized the Wii was beating out the other two consoles nearly 2:1, they only made their most low budget and/or 'casual' titles for the system.  In other words, they treated the Wii like the inferior 3rd console no one wanted to play, dispite sales clearly showing the majority of people DID want to play it.

Consumers picked up on this and soon it was apparent that the only good games for the system were Nintendo made properties like Mario, WiiFit and Smash Bros.  Consumers aren't as stupid as third parties make them out to be and they aren't going to go running out to by 20 Million copies of Imagine Babiez or EA Sports Fitness when they can just as easily buy Mario Kart or WiiFit.

kitler53 said:

i'm soo sick and tired of the wii fans whining all the time about 3rd party wii support.  the wii got tons of third party support.  but they did it in they way that third parties always to it ... they saw which software was being sucessful and tried to cash in on that sucess.

There's a difference between 'tons of support' and 'good support'.  The XBOX360 and Wii have both gotten more 'support' from third parties, but the PS3 got the 'good' support with original titles, unique DLC for PS3 versions of games and better graphics.

you can't blame third parties for the level of graphics on the wii.  not only did nintendo release a hardward that was underpowered compared to their compitiation they also actively spoke out that developers need to stop trying to focus on games with pretty graphics and instead focus on other elements.  furthermore nintendo put the biggest software push behind their wii series which i'd argue is some of the worst graphics of any games produced for the wii.

good support is in the eye of the beholder.  when games like carnival games, just dance 1 and 2, ea active obtain high sales and the supposed "good" games don't ... that's the market speaking with dollars that they don't want those games.

you have to remember, nintendo found success with the expanded market.  this is the market that didn't care about GTA,  Gran turismo, final fantasy, metal gear, kingdom hearts, metal of honor, god of war and all of the other games that appeared on the ps2 and couldn't motivate them to buy a video game system.  this is an audience that wanted something different and found it in wii sports.  your good software is their blah software. 

First of all, nearly all the 'least powerful' systems in the past came out ahead in third party support.  SNES was weaker than the Neo Geo, PSX was weaker than the N64, PS2 was weaker than the GC and XBOX.  The difference is, Third parties didn't actively support the Wii from the beginning like they did those other systems.  Its third parties that MADE those systems.  If they wanted to ,they could have done the same for the Wii, but actively chose not to, while complaining Nitnendo was taking over the industry.  That's just crying about someone else succeeding when you didn't put forth the effort (like on the SNES, PSX and PS2).

Second of all, Wii didn't have the so called 'good' games for years.  All it had WAS knock-off casual games and really low budget titles like Zack and Wiki, Soul Calibur Legends and Dragon Quest Swords.  These are in no way strong third party support.  If this had been their level of 'third party' support o nthe PS3 and 360, you'd see people crying about lack of support.  People joke that PS3 had no games in its first 2 years.  It got a TON better content than the Wii.



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

Kenryoku_Maxis said:
kitler53 said:

...

you can't blame third parties for the level of graphics on the wii.  not only did nintendo release a hardward that was underpowered compared to their compitiation they also actively spoke out that developers need to stop trying to focus on games with pretty graphics and instead focus on other elements.  furthermore nintendo put the biggest software push behind their wii series which i'd argue is some of the worst graphics of any games produced for the wii.

good support is in the eye of the beholder.  when games like carnival games, just dance 1 and 2, ea active obtain high sales and the supposed "good" games don't ... that's the market speaking with dollars that they don't want those games.

you have to remember, nintendo found success with the expanded market.  this is the market that didn't care about GTA,  Gran turismo, final fantasy, metal gear, kingdom hearts, metal of honor, god of war and all of the other games that appeared on the ps2 and couldn't motivate them to buy a video game system.  this is an audience that wanted something different and found it in wii sports.  your good software is their blah software. 

First of all, nearly all the 'least powerful' systems in the past came out ahead in third party support.  SNES was weaker than the Neo Geo, PSX was weaker than the N64, PS2 was weaker than the GC and XBOX.  The difference is, Third parties didn't actively support the Wii from the beginning like they did those other systems.  Its third parties that MADE those systems.  If they wanted to ,they could have done the same for the Wii, but actively chose not to, while complaining Nitnendo was taking over the industry.  That's just crying about someone else succeeding when you didn't put forth the effort (like on the SNES, PSX and PS2).

Second of all, Wii didn't have the so called 'good' games for years.  All it had WAS knock-off casual games and really low budget titles like Zack and Wiki, Soul Calibur Legends and Dragon Quest Swords.  These are in no way strong third party support.  If this had been their level of 'third party' support o nthe PS3 and 360, you'd see people crying about lack of support.  People joke that PS3 had no games in its first 2 years.  It got a TON better content than the Wii.

hey hey hey now ... zack and wiki was a great game.  

besides ... can you really tell me with an honest face that wii sports, wii fit, wii fit plus, wii play, wii play motion, wii music, mario sports mix, brain age wii degree, endless ocean, excite truck, wii party, mario party 8 were high budget games? 



kitler53 said:
Kenryoku_Maxis said:
kitler53 said:

...

you can't blame third parties for the level of graphics on the wii.  not only did nintendo release a hardward that was underpowered compared to their compitiation they also actively spoke out that developers need to stop trying to focus on games with pretty graphics and instead focus on other elements.  furthermore nintendo put the biggest software push behind their wii series which i'd argue is some of the worst graphics of any games produced for the wii.

good support is in the eye of the beholder.  when games like carnival games, just dance 1 and 2, ea active obtain high sales and the supposed "good" games don't ... that's the market speaking with dollars that they don't want those games.

you have to remember, nintendo found success with the expanded market.  this is the market that didn't care about GTA,  Gran turismo, final fantasy, metal gear, kingdom hearts, metal of honor, god of war and all of the other games that appeared on the ps2 and couldn't motivate them to buy a video game system.  this is an audience that wanted something different and found it in wii sports.  your good software is their blah software. 

First of all, nearly all the 'least powerful' systems in the past came out ahead in third party support.  SNES was weaker than the Neo Geo, PSX was weaker than the N64, PS2 was weaker than the GC and XBOX.  The difference is, Third parties didn't actively support the Wii from the beginning like they did those other systems.  Its third parties that MADE those systems.  If they wanted to ,they could have done the same for the Wii, but actively chose not to, while complaining Nitnendo was taking over the industry.  That's just crying about someone else succeeding when you didn't put forth the effort (like on the SNES, PSX and PS2).

Second of all, Wii didn't have the so called 'good' games for years.  All it had WAS knock-off casual games and really low budget titles like Zack and Wiki, Soul Calibur Legends and Dragon Quest Swords.  These are in no way strong third party support.  If this had been their level of 'third party' support o nthe PS3 and 360, you'd see people crying about lack of support.  People joke that PS3 had no games in its first 2 years.  It got a TON better content than the Wii.

hey hey hey now ... zack and wiki was a great game.  

besides ... can you really tell me with an honest face that wii sports, wii fit, wii fit plus, wii play, wii play motion, wii music, mario sports mix, brain age wii degree, endless ocean, excite truck, wii party, mario party 8 were high budget games? 

Zack and Wiki was a pretty good game.  But one game doesn't prove overwhelming third party support.  And compared to what came out for the PS3 and 360 even in their first years, games like Zack and Wiki were pretty weak.  And I'm not talking graphically.  Companies like Vanillaware, SquareEnix and Namco proved you could make good Wii games.  But it still took them 3-4 years to attempt it.

Aside from pobably WiiSports, they likely had higher budgets than something like Zack and Wiki and Soul Calibur Legends.  And really, I'm just talking about third party support, not Nintendo's support.  The reason the Wii was a success was because of Nintendo itself.  The lack of support, and overall problem of 'lack of software' was from Third Parties.

Do you really think XBOX360 or PS3 would have sold with just their first party support?  Sure, Halo and Uncharted sold well, but not 40 million consoles well.  If anything, Nintendo has proven it can support a 80 Million plus console by themselves.  How is it then that its their fault for any lack of software when they're the ones providing almost ALL of it?



Six upcoming games you should look into:

 

  

kitler53 said:

i'm soo sick and tired of the wii fans whining all the time about 3rd party wii support.  the wii got tons of third party support.  but they did it in they way that third parties always to it ... they saw which software was being sucessful and tried to cash in on that sucess.

wii fit sold more than 20M  units and for that you got dozens of fitness games.

wii sports/wii play sold more than 20M each and for that you got dozens of mini game collections

smash bros sold over 10M and for that you about a dozen quality fighters

metroid barely cracked 1.5M  for that you got really nothing.

third parties chase sucess, that's just what they do.  they see a market and try to capture it.  nintendo showed the most sucessful markets on the wii were fitness and mini-games and that what third parties tried to cash in on.  HD consoles get almost nothing but shooters and that's third parties trying to cash in on the success of halo/CoD. 

third parties are not responible for creating markets .. that's the platform owners duty.  if you want to blame anyone about what kind of games you got on the wii blame nintendo for not trying to create that market on their system.

and while your at it consider this ... for all of the "casual" success nintendo had they haven't been able to recreate that since New Super Mario Wii a few years back in terms of software and the 3DS seems to be showing nintendo missed the mark entirely with that hardware.  this "causual" market isn't exactly an easy market to crack.  if nintendo can't cater to this market consitently why do you expect anyone else to be able to do that?

This argument is always easily defeated...

Where are the Zelda clones? I can't think of any.

Mario is Nintendo's biggest franchise, and aside from a few Sonic games, where are the Mario clones? Nintendo seem to be the only ones who want to fulfill that market with DK and the like...

And not just Mario platformers either. If we get dozens of fitness games after Wii Fit sells 20m, where's the dozens of kart racers hoping to attract the 25m Mario Kart audience? Again, Sega put out Sonic All Star Racing (multiplatform though). But what else is there?

The games that followed Smash Bros success weren't exactly up there with Street Fighter and the like.

Third parties might be following Nintendo's success, but they're sure as hell being mighty selective with which ones they copy...



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