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Forums - General Discussion - Church forced girl, 15, to apologize for pregnancy by rape

sapphi_snake said:
The Fury said:

Is there no such thing as religious philosphy? Philosphy is just the study of lifes problems and answering them, religion can do it all. I just believe that most of the worlds ethics are based on early religious establishment. 

I agree with your last statement though.

There is such a thing as religious philosophy, but there's not much ration in it, as it starts off on false premises.

Your statement that the world's ethic systems are based on early religous establishment is false (Europe's example is a very good one, as we know that the Greek philosopher's based their views on rational thought, not on any religion; Confucious also based his views on his thinking, rather than on any religous beleifs, and his views represent the foundation of the ethical systems in Eastern Asia).

But what spread this Greek thinking to say Norway or the UK? The greek themselves or the spread of religion (Christianity in this case) that once covered the whole of Europe.

While I am not religious, many of my morals in life are based on a thinking that was established by a prominant religion because they are established in my society. The rest are based on logic and common sense to determine what is right, not what a book has told me.

You have said twice about religion and the 'false premises' which points that religion as a whole has no hold on your life. You may not have religion as a direct source of your morals but without it many of lifes simple ethics may not be as well established as they are.



Hmm, pie.

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sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

That was just wrong!

Don`t really understand why the generalizations towards a religion when an action isn`t obviously in accordance with said religion.

Isn't it? When has Christianity presented a positive vision of women?

I guess that prayer called "The Hail Mary" shows her in a negative light.



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sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

That was just wrong!

Don`t really understand why the generalizations towards a religion when an action isn`t obviously in accordance with said religion.

Isn't it? When has Christianity presented a positive vision of women?


This has got nothing to do with Christianity`s view of women - nor men. This is about someone blaming another person when said person did nothing wrong and those who put the case in a way to avoid seeing the truth of one man`s wrong doing.

It has everything to do with how Christianity views both women and men. It's about the persecution of a WOMAN, and the ignoring of a MAN's wrongdoing.


As highwaystar101 said it: "I don't think this has anything to do with the church, just one man with a distorted view on the world (and a congregation that will be sympathetic towards his manner of dealing with things)."

It`s pretty obvious this is beyond religions; it`s just someone putting the blame on someone who is a victim. This happens outside religious contexts aswell.

Christianity views both women and men equally if i may had. Salvation is offered to both. They both do good and bad and judge the same way. But please let me add this: do you know that the Virgin Mary was the only person to go to Heaven with body and soul (the assumption of Mary)? Do you know she was the only one who was born without sin, in a state of grace?

Christianity perpetuates the ideea of men having power over women, therefore women aren't equal to men.

I have been to churches since i was little and i never heard anything like that.



DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

That was just wrong!

Don`t really understand why the generalizations towards a religion when an action isn`t obviously in accordance with said religion.

Isn't it? When has Christianity presented a positive vision of women?


This has got nothing to do with Christianity`s view of women - nor men. This is about someone blaming another person when said person did nothing wrong and those who put the case in a way to avoid seeing the truth of one man`s wrong doing.

It has everything to do with how Christianity views both women and men. It's about the persecution of a WOMAN, and the ignoring of a MAN's wrongdoing.


As highwaystar101 said it: "I don't think this has anything to do with the church, just one man with a distorted view on the world (and a congregation that will be sympathetic towards his manner of dealing with things)."

It`s pretty obvious this is beyond religions; it`s just someone putting the blame on someone who is a victim. This happens outside religious contexts aswell.

Christianity views both women and men equally if i may had. Salvation is offered to both. They both do good and bad and judge the same way. But please let me add this: do you know that the Virgin Mary was the only person to go to Heaven with body and soul (the assumption of Mary)? Do you know she was the only one who was born without sin, in a state of grace?

Christianity perpetuates the ideea of men having power over women, therefore women aren't equal to men.

I have been to churches since i was little and i never heard anything like that.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God- 1 corinthians 11:3

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.-1 Timothy 2:12



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

sapphi_snake said:

If it's not blind, then it wouldn't be faith, no?

(rejecting ration in the name of faith is acting blindly)

The words you're looking for is "blind fate".



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Jehovah's Witnesses used to take the same view of rape. They claimed that if a woman was raped then really she had committed fornication, and god was angry with her. If she didn't show enough repentence for being raped to a body of male elders then she could be shunned by the congregation and her own family. When I say shunned I mean nobody, not even her parents, are allowed to talk to her or engage with her in anyway (unless she is a minor living in the house, then parents can still have a relationship with her.)

Here's a snippet from an old watchtower magazine.

   "According to the Bible at Deuteronomy 22:23-27, an Israelite engaged girl threatened with rape was required to scream. What is the position of a Christian woman today if faced with a similar situation? Is she to scream even if an attacker threatens her life with a weapon?

According to God's law an Israelite girl was under obligation to scream: "In case there happened to be a virgin girl engaged to a man, and a man actually found her in the city and lay down with her, you must also bring them both out to the gate of that city and pelt them with stones, and they must die, the girl for the reason that she did not scream in the city, and the man for the reason that he humiliated the wife of his fellow man." If, however, the attack took place in a field and the woman screamed and thus tried to get away from the attacker, she was not to be stoned, since she was overpowered and there was no one to rescue her.-Deut. 22:23-27.

But suppose the man had a weapon and threatened to kill the girl if she failed to lie down with him? These scriptures do not weaken the argument or alter the situation by citing any circumstance that would justify her in not screaming. It plainly says she should scream; hence, oppose the attack regardless of the circumstances. If she was overpowered and perhaps knocked unconscious and violated before help came in answer to her screams, she could not be held accountable. The thought of the scriptures apparently is that the girl's screaming, by attracting neighborhood attention, would frighten off her assailant and would save her, even though he threatened her life for not quietly complying with his wishes and passionate desires.

Such Scriptural precedents are applicable to Christians, who are under command, "Flee from fornication." (1 Cor. 6:18) Thus if a Christian woman does not cry out and does not put forth every effort to flee, she would be viewed as consenting to the violation. The Christian woman who wants to keep clean and obey God's commandments, then, if faced with this situation today, needs to be courageous and to act on the suggestion made by the Scriptures and scream. Actually this counsel is for her welfare; for, if she should submit to the man's passionate wishes, she would not only be consenting to fornication or adultery, but be plagued by the shame. There would be shame, not only from the repulsiveness of the experience, but of having been coerced into breaking God's law by having sex connections with one other than a legal marriage mate. Not only that, but she might become an unwed mother, or she may contract a terrible disease from her morally debased attacker."

 

Or here is a great quote on why rapes happen from a watchtower in the 70s

"Womankind must share the blame. To begin with, until the age of five or six years, the most vital period, little boys have their personalities molded largely by women, their mothers. And as they grow up, it is usually the mother that has the most opportunities to inculcate in her son respect for womankind, both by word and by example. But far too many mothers have come short in this regard. Especially and specifically blameworthy are those female relatives, such as an aunt or even a mother, who have used boys as sexual playthings, thereby starting them on a road that leads to their having aggressive feelings toward women."

 

They used to print an article every once and a while about rape, and how it was preferable to be killed by a rapist than to be raped and bring shame on yourself. But In more recent times they've softened their stance a bit, namely because people wrote in saying how egregiously disgusting what they were teaching women was. They went through a wishy washy period where one article would state that it is a myth that the woman is to blame for being raped and then a few years later release another article saying you need to scream and fight to the death thusly showing god that you didn't consent to having sex outside of marriage. The last article I had seen on it was from I think 2003, that said you should scream but ultimately it's up to god to decide whether or not you wanted to be raped.

Patriarchy is rarely interested in women's rights.



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

Oh I have one more scripture to add to my above post on men being the head of women

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God- 1 corinthians 11:3

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.-1 Timothy 2:12

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24



You can find me on facebook as Markus Van Rijn, if you friend me just mention you're from VGchartz and who you are here.

ssj12 said:
mrstickball said:
ssj12 said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

That was just wrong!

Don`t really understand why the generalizations towards a religion when an action isn`t obviously in accordance with said religion.

Isn't it? When has Christianity presented a positive vision of women?


before the new testament when women could be pastors and hold power in the church.

To be fair, there were women pastors and held power in the NT church, as per Paul's writings. Multiple references were given to women that held church services in their house, and Paul mentions quite a few women that were of prominence in the church. However, many people tend to discourage proper interpretation of these scriptures.


That is true, but the sexist bureaucrats that ran/runs the Church denounced/denounces the household teachings if I remember right, too. I think it has something to do with some crap along the lines of "scripture and holy blessings can only truly be given by a pastor in the house of god" or some crap like that.

The problem is your definition of 'church'.

No protestant denomination teaches that. Only Catholics do. They teach the pope is infailable, thus their preists are by proxy likely to be infaliable too. Comparatively, protestants believe no one is at or above God, therefore, the final authority rests with God and not men. Therefore, understanding scripture is best done on a personal basis, with the pastor helping to direct the congregation with emphasis on certain life-applicable issues.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

The_vagabond7 said:

Oh I have one more scripture to add to my above post on men being the head of women

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God- 1 corinthians 11:3

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.-1 Timothy 2:12

Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. Ephesians 5:22-24

You kind of missed the other parts by taking it out of context:

 

Ephesians 5:21-33

 21Out of respect for Christ, be courteously reverent to one another.

 22-24Wives, understand and support your husbands in ways that show your support for Christ. The husband provides leadership to his wife the way Christ does to his church, not by domineering but by cherishing. So just as the church submits to Christ as he exercises such leadership, wives should likewise submit to their husbands.

 25-28Husbands, go all out in your love for your wives, exactly as Christ did for the church—a love marked by giving, not getting. Christ's love makes the church whole. His words evoke her beauty. Everything he does and says is designed to bring the best out of her, dressing her in dazzling white silk, radiant with holiness. And that is how husbands ought to love their wives. They're really doing themselves a favor—since they're already "one" in marriage.

 29-33No one abuses his own body, does he? No, he feeds and pampers it. That's how Christ treats us, the church, since we are part of his body. And this is why a man leaves father and mother and cherishes his wife. No longer two, they become "one flesh." This is a huge mystery, and I don't pretend to understand it all. What is clearest to me is the way Christ treats the church. And this provides a good picture of how each husband is to treat his wife, loving himself in loving her, and how each wife is to honor her husband.

Yeah, real inequality in those statements. I guess I shouldn't go all out in loving my wife by giving more than recieving, hunh?



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

The_vagabond7 said:
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:
sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

That was just wrong!

Don`t really understand why the generalizations towards a religion when an action isn`t obviously in accordance with said religion.

Isn't it? When has Christianity presented a positive vision of women?


This has got nothing to do with Christianity`s view of women - nor men. This is about someone blaming another person when said person did nothing wrong and those who put the case in a way to avoid seeing the truth of one man`s wrong doing.

It has everything to do with how Christianity views both women and men. It's about the persecution of a WOMAN, and the ignoring of a MAN's wrongdoing.


As highwaystar101 said it: "I don't think this has anything to do with the church, just one man with a distorted view on the world (and a congregation that will be sympathetic towards his manner of dealing with things)."

It`s pretty obvious this is beyond religions; it`s just someone putting the blame on someone who is a victim. This happens outside religious contexts aswell.

Christianity views both women and men equally if i may had. Salvation is offered to both. They both do good and bad and judge the same way. But please let me add this: do you know that the Virgin Mary was the only person to go to Heaven with body and soul (the assumption of Mary)? Do you know she was the only one who was born without sin, in a state of grace?

Christianity perpetuates the ideea of men having power over women, therefore women aren't equal to men.

I have been to churches since i was little and i never heard anything like that.

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God- 1 corinthians 11:3

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.-1 Timothy 2:12

Your first quote only tells that even God and Jesus, who share the same spirit, aren`t "equal", so are neither man nor woman as they have different roles. But that doesn`t mean they aren`t seen the same in God`s eyes.

"27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." Genesis
Everyone was created in God`s image.

And those words seem to have a context aswell.